Is El Salvador The LAST Place To Escape The Great Reset? (2026 Second Passport Guide) | Jennifer Harding

Is your citizenship a rug pull waiting to happen? 

We sit down with legal expert Jennifer Harding Marlin (@jh_marlin) to discuss why relying on a single fiat passport is a massive single point of failure. We explore the harsh truth for Americans facing restrictive FATCA banking regulations and why entrepreneurs are forced to renounce US citizenship just to protect their stack and keep their businesses alive.

Jennifer breaks down the citizenship by investment industry for those looking to opt out of the system completely. We navigate the maze of golden visa programs available right now to determine where you should plant your flag. From the lightning-fast El Salvador Freedom Visa to traditional Caribbean options we compare the best citadels. She highlights the ability to pay for a new nationality directly in Bitcoin for those looking to exit the fiat banking rails entirely.

We also get into the operational security of securing your freedom. You will learn the difference between applying for a temporary digital nomad visa and securing a permanent high-security biometric passport that guarantees global mobility. Jennifer explains how to navigate the bureaucracy of background checks and apostille services to ensure you actually get approved. 

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-Bitcoin Beach Team

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Web: https://jhmarlin.com/ 

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Browse through this quick guide to learn more about the episode:

00:00  Intro 
02:26  How to become a citizenship lawyer in Caribbean 
06:50  Best second passport for weak passport holders 
09:44  Why American entrepreneurs renounce citizenship FATCA banking 
13:15  New citizenship by investment programs 2025 Sao Tome 
17:30  El Salvador Freedom Visa processing time vs St Kitts citizenship 
22:10  Cheapest vs most expensive citizenship by investment 2025 
28:40  Is foreign income tax-free in El Salvador for US expats 
33:14  Paraguay vs El Salvador residency requirements for digital nomads 
36:50  Can you get citizenship by investment with a criminal record

Live From Bitcoin Beach

Transcript

Jennifer Harding: More programs be open to having Bitcoin as a source of funds. So those are just some of the changes, and we're seeing a lot of people interested in El Salvador. So since the El Salvador citizenship program was announced a couple of years ago, almost every day someone asks me about El Salvador really. Like, I'm so shocked because it's a million dollars for the passport and other programs in the Caribbean are around 250,000 US.

And then other programs around the world, around the US, 100,000 price point. I'm just, it's at first it was surprising to me. And then spending time in El Salvador, and you see the direction that the country is going in, I can see why more and more people every day are interested in El Salvador.

Mike Peterson: We're gonna be talking passports today. We have Jennifer with us. She's a lawyer in the Caribbean. Has been in that space for you said, 10 years? Yeah, almost 10 years now, which I was questioning. I'm like, you don't look like you're old enough to be in there for 10 years, but I guess you were sped through school, and your friend here was telling me that you were top of your class and got some honorary enlistment in college. So tell us a little bit about that.

Jennifer Harding: So I went to school at McGill University in Montreal, Canada and Quebec, and I was one of the youngest students in law school. So how old were you when you entered? I was 19. Okay, I graduated in 21 in the law school.

Mike Peterson: You were 19? Yeah, yeah. So, and you have to finish university before, correct?

Jennifer Harding: So I did go to university before. So there in Quebec, there's this thing as Cégep, which is pre-University. So I went to pre-University, and then I got admitted directly into law school. Okay, wow, so, and I really enjoyed my time at McGill and ended up in the Caribbean.

Mike Peterson: So what led to that decision to, you're in Canada, you graduate? I mean, obviously, the winter isn't cold. I can see why the Caribbean would be an attractive place, but how do you make that jump from graduating from law school to moving to the Caribbean?

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, so I actually did an internship when I was in law school. I was looking to distinguish myself from my older male peers, and I did some research, and I discovered that Nevis was one of the best jurisdictions in the world, and so I went there, worked in a law firm. Really enjoyed my time there. I'm sorry, where was that in Nevis? Nevis, okay, yeah, so in St Kitts and Nevis.

And then I eventually, once I graduated, I became called to the bar in Canada. So I'm a Canadian lawyer. Did qualifications to be qualified in the Caribbean, and then worked in the Cayman Islands, after spending time in the Bahamas. In the Bahamas, and then eventually opened my own firm in St Kitts and Nevis.

Mike Peterson: So does the Caribbean have like a, like a unified jurisdiction, as far as because there, there's lots of different countries there, do they have like a criteria for being a lawyer there that's like, Caribbean wide or?

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, so you have to be called to each specific country's bar. So there is a formal process for each country.

Mike Peterson: And so if you pass the bar in multiple countries there, or you just pass it in one and then you can kind of practice in that region?

Jennifer Harding: You'd have to have another lawyer call you to the bar. And sometimes you have to be a citizen, have done a legal education certificate and done prior qualifications to be able to. So it's very specific, depending on what country you want to become a lawyer in.

Mike Peterson: So was the internship you were doing? Was this specifically, like second passports is what you were working on, or you were just working on general law and you decided to go in that direction?

Jennifer Harding: Yes, you're working corporate, commercial, citizenship by investment. In corporate commercial, we did a lot of Company Incorporation, so IBCs, LLCs, trust foundations. Also did work in litigation and criminal law. So I went to the jail in St Kitts and Nevis. And, yeah, it's just a really interesting experience.

Mike Peterson: So just for my own clarification, I've always seen St Kitts and Nevis, is that, like two different countries that are on one island, or that's the whole that's the name is St Kitts and Nevis?

Jennifer Harding: So the name of the country is technically St Christopher and Nevis, but abbreviated St Kitts and Nevis, it's two islands one country. Okay, but it's interesting because their company law, they have specific to Nevis and that of that specific to St Kitts, and they have Nevis financial laws for the two islands in the same country. Yeah. So they have Nevis financial services and St Kitts financial services, and they're regulated differently.

Mike Peterson: Interesting. And do you know why that is?

Jennifer Harding: I don't know why that is. It just is always fun like that. Yeah. So used to be like the country used to be St Kitts Nevis Anguilla, before they separated, and St Kitts and Nevis as a country, interesting.

Mike Peterson: Yeah. So you were, you were doing some of the citizenship stuff in your internship, but then what was your pathway from there to going? Because I believe now that's what you solely focus on, or maybe correct me if I'm wrong.

Jennifer Harding: Yeah. So we were primarily focused on helping people relocate abroad and get a second passport to live more globally and freely. And I was really passionate about the topic, especially people are limited, often based on where the country where they're born. They don't have opportunities. And getting a second passport can open so many opportunities, from educational for their children, business and travel wise. And I just a topic I was really passionate about. And, you know, having helped a lot of people in the Bitcoin space, in citizenship, it just, it's just, like, a huge passion of mine.

Mike Peterson: Well, I think a lot of I know most Americans don't realize, like, how big of an impact that has on people's lives. I know even as we're focused on circular Bitcoin economies, we're working with a number of them around the world. We have, you know, this last year, we put on a summit, and a lot of the people we're trying to bring in, we couldn't get here, not even because we couldn't get the Salvadoran visa. It was the transit countries that they had to pass through. We couldn't get visas for them, and so it was hugely frustrating for us, but you just think about for them, just how that limits their options in life.

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, so we've helped clients from 40, 50 different countries. Like one Bitcoiner, sorry in particular, was a client from Iraq, and he had invested in Bitcoin, and he was able to afford a second passport, and did the citizenship program of St Kitts and Nevis at the time when they were accepting clients from Iraq. And he actually relocated to St Kitts for a little while, and then has since traveled the world, and it's opened so many opportunities for him and completely changed his life. So Bitcoin could change his life. Getting a second passport changed his life. And we have a lot of stories like this from people all around the world.

Mike Peterson: Yeah, like I said, I think most of us who have a passport that, you know, allows us Visa free entry to a lot of places we just don't realize what a blessing that is. And so that's amazing that you're able to do that. I'm curious as to what percentage of your business is people kind of in that situation. Like, I know, even here, we met somebody who came here to get one of the Salvadoran passports, and he was from Belarus, and he was saying, like, you just pretty much they've been lumped in with Russia, and you pretty much can't travel anywhere now.

And so for him, this was like, you know, opening the world again to him to be able to get a passport. So I'm curious what percentage of the business you guys do is with people coming from those situations, and then what percentage is it people in the US that are just looking for a plan B? I know, you know, maybe they don't need it quite as much, but, you know, a lot of times they'll have more resources, because it's not a cheap process. And so I'm just curious as to what you'd say the divide between those that you see.

Jennifer Harding: Yes, when I first started the business, I thought I would primarily be helping people where that had a bad passport, per se, and now we're seeing more and more Americans. We helped Roger Ver, the first investor in the world in Bitcoin, yeah. So we helped him, Heidi from Crypto Tips, and Colin from Colin Talks Crypto and a lot of Bitcoiners. So we helped. I'd say our primary market is those looking for a second plan B, backup option, citizenship.

Mike Peterson: Yeah, interesting, yeah, wow. And do you think that most of that is driven just is that just a financial consideration, that those are the people that can generally afford it? Is that why they're the primary driver of the business?

Jennifer Harding: I think it's just they want options for themselves and their families. Some people choose to go on to renounce their citizenship. Other people just want to have a plan B, backup option in case something were to go wrong. It's for a variety of different reasons. Like some people, it's just relocation. They want to live or invest in the country, and they want a passport of that country.

Mike Peterson: That makes sense. Do you? I'm curious like, what percentage would you say, say, of Americans that get a second passport go on to renounce their citizenship?

Jennifer Harding: I think it's a very small percentage, I'd say probably 5% of people that do it will end up going on to renounce, yeah.

Mike Peterson: I mean, has big implications. I mean, you can't if you have family in the US, you could be denied entry to visit them. And I actually know a guy here actually attends the church I attend in San Salvador that he's American, and he had a business, the financial service business. There was all his customers were in Latin America, and when they passed, I believe it was FATCA, the two banks that he worked with both said that they would no longer do business with him.

And so he had this choice at that point, do I renounce my citizenship, or do I lose my business? And so he went on to renounce his citizenship so that he could keep his business intact, which is so sad that the US government and has passed things that require that, but, but, yeah, it's the reality. There's a lot of people always think it's just for tax purposes, but the reality is, a US passport can be a detriment. If you're trying to do business in a lot of places in the world, they just, they don't want to deal with you because they're afraid the US government will come after them, and so it's easier just to, you know, like red line all the Americans. And even a buddy of mine who was in Switzerland for a number of years with an international company. He said their company stopped bringing in Americans. You know, it was a huge international corporation, but usually they would transfer people all around, but they said, No, we won't let the Americans from the company come here because it's just too much of a pain. The banks don't want to deal with them like everybody's afraid to touch them. And so I can see people kind of doing it for that reason.

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, for sure. Like, there's so much red tape, but nobody wants to touch Americans, like, as you've mentioned. So it can be that's one of the reasons why some people will go on to get another passport, and even why some people go on to renounce as well, like, as you sometimes mentioned.

Mike Peterson: It's not good enough to have another one, they still, because it says in there that you were born in the US, and so they'll still blackball you from, you know, being a client, and so you actually have to go on to renounce, which is crazy, yeah, yeah. So what have you seen change in the last 10 years? The because, because 10 years ago, I'm sure the industry was, was a little bit different than it is now. And it seems, from what I can tell, that this is a growing industry, that there's more and more people that are realizing, hey, it's not a bad idea to have a second passport, to have this plan B.

You know, I would subscribe, you know, a lot of others in Bitcoin space that we're kind of going through this fourth turning period of turbulence, and people don't know how we're going to come out the other side. We don't know what countries are going to still be free countries. We don't know what places we will want to have our families. And so a lot of people want to have that option. So what have you seen change? And what is the current state of the industry?

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, so the investor immigration industry has changed significantly in the last 10 years. I'd say the prices have increased. Number one, that's kind of a shock to some people that it's changed. It's becoming much more stringent. We're seeing a lot more programs open. So there's new programs emerging in Africa. For example, the São Tomé and Príncipe citizenship program launched about two, three months ago, and we have a lot of clients who are helping with that. Botswana announced that it was going to do a citizenship program. We've seen programs emerge in the South Pacific, like Nauru. Argentina announced that it will be doing a citizenship program, most likely.

So there's increased programs, although the Caribbean programs are becoming more difficult to do in terms of the price point and documentation, and we're seeing more programs be open to having Bitcoin as a source of funds. So those are just some of the changes, and we're seeing a lot of people interested in El Salvador. So since the El Salvador citizenship program was announced a couple years ago, almost every day someone asked me about El Salvador really, like I'm so shocked, because it's a million dollars for the passport. And other programs in the Caribbean are around 250,000 US. And then other programs around the world are around the US 100,000 price point. I'm just, it's at first it was surprising to me. And then spending time in El Salvador, and you see the direction that the country is going in, I can see why more and more people every day are interested in El Salvador.

Mike Peterson: Well, what I have heard, and I know a few people in this situation who have gotten the Salvadoran passports that they started the process in the Caribbean, and it dragged on for, you know, months, for one of them, for years, and they were just sick of dealing with it. And so, you know, they were folks that, you know, not that a million dollars wasn't still a lot for them, but, you know, compared to the amount of time and everything they invested, it was, you know, a small enough percentage of their net worth that they were like, hey, in order to just get rid of this headache, do this program, and they had their passports, I believe here in three weeks. It was a very streamlined and a very like, yeah, I don't know why they drag the other programs drag on for months, so maybe you can explain why they were able to do it here in three weeks. And these programs are dragging on sometimes for years.

Jennifer Harding: Yeah. So El Salvador, we've had clients be approved in two weeks, and it takes, like, as you said, three weeks to get the passport. So the most definitely the fastest, efficient process around the world, very straightforward and minimal documentation, compared to other citizenship programs. And then, like in the Caribbean, St Kitts and Nevis is really the only one that's processing on a quick basis at the moment, with three to five months, three to six months processing. And then, unfortunately, programs like St Lucia are taking 18 months. Antigua, if you submitted your application before the price increase, they're still processing files for that so.

Mike Peterson: And why is that? Like, it doesn't seem like it should be that complicated of a process.

Jennifer Harding: Well they have to do background checks on all applications, and they don't have the staff to support the volume of applicants that they've received. Especially the trend over the last two years has been everyone wants a second passport. We're helping people as well with Citizenship by Descent services as well, so unlocking your heritage to see if you're entitled to a passport. So everyone's looking for a different route to get a passport. And you know, these Caribbean countries are slow.

Mike Peterson: But you would think, with the amount of income they're getting from this that they would be incentivized to, like, understand, like, hey, people have choices. So if you make this the you know, even if you charge more, but if you make it less painful to go through, you'll actually increase the revenue you can bring and the people that will have, you know, there's a benefit to having wealthy people have an emotional tie to your country because they're a passport holder there.

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, everyone's been complaining. I'm complaining too. If you can help process my applications quicker, I'd be happy. A lot of our clients would be happy. I do know that Caribbean islands will be introducing a 30 day physical presence requirement. So like, as you mentioned, they want to have people that have a more connection, emotional connection, to the country. And so I think that's a direction that a lot of at least the Caribbean countries are going in at the moment.

Mike Peterson: And do you think that that's like, because they're getting pressure from other countries that currently give them visa free travel, and they're saying, Hey, we're going to cut this off, because you're selling passports. And so they're trying to make it more like, No, this is not just selling passports. These people are becoming citizens, yeah.

Jennifer Harding: So I think they're trying to continue their programs and continue the prosperity of their programs, and they're trying to maintain their visa free travel, which is extremely valuable to having the passport and having strong level of visa free travel.

Mike Peterson: So how does the Salvadoran passport compared to like the St Kitts?

Jennifer Harding: So both are, both are very strong passports. Both have high levels of visa free travel, with exception of Canada, the United States, Australia, you'll need a visa to go to those countries. In terms of price points, El Salvador is a lot more expensive, yeah, but you can pay directly in Bitcoin versus other citizenship programs. When you want to go to pay the unit, you have to pay in US dollar via wire transfer, or for some programs, you can do through third party intermediary paying in Bitcoin.

Mike Peterson: Okay, are there any other programs in the world that allow you to pay directly in Bitcoin?

Jennifer Harding: Not at the moment, okay, or not that I'm aware of. Yeah, yeah.

Mike Peterson: Okay. So what is it when, when you have clients that come to you and they're interested in the Salvadoran program, what is the biggest draw? Do you think, is it that the process is easy? Is it that they can pay in Bitcoin? Is it because they want to be part of what's happening in El Salvador, like, what is the driver?

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, I think it's a combination of all those factors. I think the fast processing time is like the number one factor for people. They want to have a reassurance that they're not going to be strung along for months on end without getting the passport. They want to get the passport almost immediately, and then the payment in Bitcoin, and then being a part of a country that's going in the right direction, and being a part of the movement. They think that El Salvador is a good country to be a citizen of in the long term.

Mike Peterson: That makes sense. Yeah. So do you have, like, categories that you put countries in? When people come, you know, say, I'm a new client, and I know nothing about this, and I'm like, hey, I want to have a second passport. How do you walk people through it? What do you get them and what's the cheapest passport out there? What's the most expensive, and how do you help them, kind of decipher which ones are the best fit for them?

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, so we go over they do a call with us. We can go over their goals and objectives, if it's just for themselves, if they want to include the family, if they actually want to relocate or do business in a specific country, and what their specific needs are. In terms of the lowest cost point at the moment, it's São Tomé and Príncipe, at around 90,000 US dollar is the minimum investment. And then the highest is Austria, which, like is not technically a citizenship by investment. It's more of a citizenship by exception, and that's around 3 million.

Mike Peterson: Okay, and that's a 3 million payment?

Jennifer Harding: 3 million payment. It's very selective, and it's very, very difficult to get. But again, the higher around the higher price point would be the El Salvador citizenship.

Mike Peterson: Okay, yeah. And which, which was the, I'm gonna butcher the name. It was, it was, it south.

Jennifer Harding: I don't even pronounce it right, São Tomé and Príncipe. It's an island off the coast of Africa.

Mike Peterson: And I'm guessing that that's not the strongest of passports.

Jennifer Harding: No, it's not the strongest of passports. You don't have high level visa free. It's about 80 to 90 countries visa free travel. But it is a part of the CPLP, Community of Portuguese Language Countries. So you can have facilitated immigration towards other countries that are part of the agreement. So for example, Portugal, Mozambique and other countries.

Mike Peterson: So that can help you eventually get residency in one of those countries. Or you can travel to those countries?

Jennifer Harding: You can get fast track residency in those countries. And like, for example, Portugal, you could potentially get fast track citizenship as well through, and then you get a foothold into Africa. So a lot of people want to, like, invest in Africa, get in on the wave, before Africa becomes more of a emerging country.

Mike Peterson: And what is the timeline on the process there?

Jennifer Harding: So the timeline is about three months from start to finish. So it's one of the quicker ones. Yeah, it's one of the quicker ones. I'd say are São Tomé and Príncipe, St Kitts and Nevis in the Caribbean, and then Vanuatu and Nauru in the South Pacific.

Mike Peterson: And of those three, which are the St Kitts, has the strongest passport, yeah.

Jennifer Harding: So of those, of those St Kitts definitely has a strongest visa, which was Vanuatu. Yeah, Vanuatu, so they would have probably, I don't pronounce it right, and how many? How many visa free countries? I'd say they're around 130.

Mike Peterson: Okay, so it's like a mid level, maybe?

Jennifer Harding: A little bit less, visa free, visa on arrival. It changes all the time. So it really is subject to change.

Mike Peterson: Interesting. And how much is how much is that one?

Jennifer Harding: It's around 150,000 US.

Mike Peterson: Okay, interesting, yeah. And so what do you see going forward? Do you think that there's going to be more countries opening up these type of programs? Do you think there'll be more shutting down because there's pushback from other countries? Other countries don't like it when when they see countries selling access. So how does that dance play out?

Jennifer Harding: I think more countries will be launching programs, and I think that some of the reasons why certain countries don't want these countries to exist is because they want to have their own program. So countries are really competing for your assets, your time, your resources. And I think citizenship is a new asset class that people are discovering and investing in. And I think in the next 10 years, there'll be more programs, whether it's citizenship or it's a residency or digital nomad visa or different type of program that's launched, I think a lot of countries will be wanting to attract international investors.

Mike Peterson: Do you know, like, just take St Kitts? Do you know how many passports they have done?

Jennifer Harding: So they don't disclose how many citizens I've had over time, but I would assume a high number.

Mike Peterson: Okay, and what percent do you think actually live there?

Jennifer Harding: Would it be a very small percentage? I think it'd be a small percentage. There's a quite a few big, really big Bitcoiners that do live on island, but it's a small percentage.

Mike Peterson: So I had because I hadn't heard much about the program in El Salvador and any metrics put out, and different things. I, you know, I knew, actually knew, a number of people who got their passports right away. And so early days I, you know, I probably knew 12 people that had gotten it. So I felt like, Oh no, it's but then I didn't really hear anything about it, and so I kind of assumed that it was, you know, that it had kind of been a disappointment and a failure, and there wasn't that many happening. But I've talked to a couple other people in the business, and they're like, No, we have a lot of clients that want Salvadoran and have gone that route. And it seems like maybe El Salvador is a little bit quiet about it, just because they don't want to raise the ire of other countries that currently allow them visa free travel. Would that be a fair assumption? Do you think or?

Jennifer Harding: Yes, I think that's a fair assumption. They're also capped 1000, I believe it's 1000 applicants per year, and I don't think that they reach that number, but there still is a high, high number of people that do El Salvador citizenship through investment. And just yesterday, I was at a brunch and I ran into someone who wasn't a client of ours, but that did El Salvador citizenship. So just like another person that did El Salvador citizenship.

Mike Peterson: And do you see the demand, like from your clients kind of growing for that or, and do you think that the is the price, the biggest thing that holds people back? Or how do people weigh those things? I'm assuming it just depends on their own financial situation. But what, what are you seeing as people evaluate, like, the ease versus the cost?

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, I think they're trying to resend is that some people do one program, and then they want to do multiple different citizenship programs. So we're creating passport portfolios for clients across different geographic regions.

Mike Peterson: And it's like getting a tattoo once you get one. You want more is that?

Jennifer Harding: No, I think, I think people just want to further do business within the country. They want to support the country they support. Bitcoin. And the Bitcoin ecosystem here that you've, you've, you've done at Bitcoin Beach, so they want in on it. And I think you know, ease and the cost are, are factors that are also considered in it.

Mike Peterson: So if you were called by the Salvadoran government and said, hey, what can we do to attract more people to this program? What are the things that we should put in place? Like, would you be able to come back to them and say, like, No, this is what our clients would be looking for. And this would be make you guys the slam dunk, you know, passport option for people?

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, I think they could look to other countries that have successfully had citizenship programs since, you know, the next, the last 20, 30, 40 years. And do something similar, I think, by reducing the price point and having both a physical presence requirement as well as a lower price point, and perhaps spending a certain period of time here, over time, to be able to, you know, really integrate within the community and give back to the community as well, and contribute to the building up of El Salvador. I think it would be very attractive, and I think a lot of people would be interested in such a program.

Mike Peterson: So so I was talking to somebody recently who's not specifically in the passport space per se, but does a lot of work with people, as far as relocating, you know, and but overall, looking at their businesses, everything it's, I think they have, like, a pretty comprehensive program. And he was saying that one of the issues right now that they have a problem with in El Salvador is the tax structure and lack of clarity on. Well, from my understanding, from talking to lawyers and accountants here before that that overseas income is not taxed in El Salvador, that that's not a worldwide taxation, but he was saying that that's not that clear, that there, if You're in El Salvador and you're you're earning income that that the taxation is unclear. Have you run into that at all? Or is that a question of your clients? Or can you speak to that at all?

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, so I'm not a tax attorney, and I don't provide tax advice, so this isn't tax advice, but we've gone, and I've gone to multiple different firms to try to get opinions and get their viewpoints on the taxation and different law firms say completely different things. Exactly, my experience, it's very unclear. And especially, you know, Bitcoin is seems to be tax friendly here in El Salvador, but if you do hold out coins, or if you do have your income elsewhere, that the tax law, I think, really needs to be reformed, as you mentioned, and that would attract a lot more investors. Because in the Caribbean, you know, there's no personal income tax, there's no gift wealth inheritance tax, there's no capital gains tax, like, you know for sure, if you're, especially if you're a really big investor, that you're not, you're not subject to tax. I think that people really need that clarity, and it'll just help build up the country even more well.

Mike Peterson: And that's exactly what he was saying. Like he was saying like he was saying he wouldn't recommend clients to hear right now for that specific reason, and that as they've met with some government officials, he feels like they're not even aware that this is an issue. And so if there's anybody from the government listening right now, this is something that can be big for El Salvador to to attract foreign capital, to attract foreign talent, is to kind of provide some clarity on this, so people know if they become a citizen or if they become a resident, you know what exactly their their tax liabilities will be.

Because nobody wants to make big decisions like that with with every different lawyer or accounting firm they talk to, telling them the different rules, yeah. So that for me, that was like, like, I feel like I've talked to 10 different entities, I've gotten 10 different answers, and I kind of feel like the only way I'm going to find out is to open a company here and then understand what? When I go to file, learn by, you know, learn by trial and error. And that's that's kind of unnerving. And so I think that that's something El Salvador should look to other countries that have had these programs that have been successful, and they don't have to reinvent the wheel. They can just say, okay, where has it worked in a way that benefits those people. It also benefits El Salvador and implement something kind of clean like that.

Jennifer Harding: Yes, a lot of countries have special economic zones and or have tax incentives for people that are relocating and so yeah, there definitely needs to be clarity for big investors to make, be able to make decisions over the short term and over the long term. You need clarity. And business clarity is super important.

Mike Peterson: Do you guys specifically only work with people that are looking for second passports, or do you also work with people who are just looking for residencies?

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, so we help with residencies as well, where, you know, we've recently onboarded new staff as well because our business is growing. The the demand for passports. But there are residency programs around the world, the UAE, the Dubai, Dubai residency, Portugal, the golden visa there. There's some people have done Costa Rica residency, I myself have become a resident of Panama through Panama residency, also a resident of Cayman Islands. So Cayman Islands residency programs, and there's multiple residency programs around the world that we also assist with, okay.

Mike Peterson: Yeah, because that was the other thing I was told about. The challenge in El Salvador is the residency program has a pretty stringent physical presence requirement as part of it, so you can't really get a residency and only spend a couple months a year here you have to, you know, I think be here, I don't know what it's, 10 months a year, or something pretty stringent.

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, I think it's around eight months a year approximately as well. And having spoken to people here that have relocated to El Salvador, a lot of people have done the Paraguay residency program because there's minimal physical presence requirement in order to maintain your Paraguay residency, versus El Salvador, if you go through the process and you're not here eight months, well, you have to redo the process again if you want to become a resident. So that's quite frustrating, especially a lot of Bitcoiners and people they want to travel and, yeah, will live a more digital nomad life. And that, I think, is a direction that the world's going in. So it'd be attractive if they could change the residency program to be more.

Mike Peterson: And I think even, even if they wanted to charge people more, I think people would be, you know, would prefer that and say, hey, just give me the option. Well, you know, we'll pay more for the visa, but we want to be able to try. Because I know people in that exact situation. And in fact, one couple that, you know, they have a podcast, and they're like, We need to travel to interview people, but then we're, like, always worried that we're gonna, like, not have enough days racked up in El Salvador, and it so it creates this, like tension. And so I don't feel like that's helpful to anybody. So I think if the government can kind of streamline those things and and I think it's okay to have like, some physical presence. You want people to have a tie to El Salvador, but have it in a way that kind of fits people's, you know, kind of global lifestyle, if you want to attract that type of talent.

Jennifer Harding: Exactly, I'm I'm on board with you. I agree with you totally.

Mike Peterson: I'm curious to what the if you guys have had experience with people in the program in Paraguay with residency and how that leads to a passport, because we were there for a Bitcoin Conference, and was that, I think, a few months ago, and I was surprised the number of Bitcoiners that were were moving to Paraguay, and a number of them had gotten the residency. And so is there a quick pathway to citizenship through that program there, or what's, what's your guys, what's your experience been with that?

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, so we've only recently started helping people with the residency option, so we haven't had anyone that's gone that's maintained their residency for multiple years to be able to be entitled to citizenship. But a lot of residency programs, if you are spend significant amount of times in the country, each country is different than other days you need to spend, then you can apply for citizenship after so many years. So for example, Uruguay, which is near Paraguay, it's three years to citizenship if you're married, or five years to citizenship if you're single. You do have to be physically present there for so many days a year.

Mike Peterson: So when you say you're married, you have to be married to a Uruguayan citizen? Or just if you're married in general?

Jennifer Harding: Just if you're married in general.

Mike Peterson: Okay, so they just Okay, so they just like you married people is more stable potential citizens, and so it's a faster pathway, I assume. So, okay, yeah, interesting, yeah. And do you guys do many passports or in any involvement in Uruguay?

Jennifer Harding: We're looking at Uruguay. We're looking into being able to offer that to some clients. We've had some clients that we helped with, saying, St Kitts citizenship, for example, Grenada citizenship, that have relocated to Uruguay. Love it, and they're like, beautiful. You guys need to be doing, they're like, You need to be in Uruguay. You need to be offering us.

Mike Peterson: Well, I've heard there's a lot of benefits for, you know, expats that relocate there, as far as their tax structure and things like that, so that it can be, you know, pretty attractive to people. And it's a beautiful country, yeah, very developed. And, yeah, has a lot going for it.

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, it's on my list of places to go. I've never been. I've never been. So it's 20 project. 2026. Is to Uruguay and and spend time, spend more time in Paraguay as well.

Mike Peterson: Yeah, yeah, no, it's Uruguay is, is beautiful. Paraguay was an interesting country. It seemed like one of those places. It didn't necessarily have anything like as a traveler, like you needed to see. There was nothing that I felt that was really remarkable about it, per se. But it was just a very comfortable place. So I could see it being a place you'd want to relocate and live just because it's it was just very comfortable and easy. And cost of living was very low. You have easy access to, you know, to Brazil and Argentina, but but Paraguay itself was, was kind of reminded me, like the Midwest or something in the US. So it was just kind of like. But the people are very friendly. And, yeah, it was, it was very comfortable.

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, have you been to Costa Rica?

Mike Peterson: Of all the places, I think I was counting this last year, I think I've been like, 54 countries now, I have not been to Costa Rica. It's, you know, it's one of those places that's so close, and you always figure you'll go. I was actually supposed to speak at a conference there a couple years ago. I had to cancel and but, yeah, I don't know why it's kind of embarrassing, but it's one of those places I haven't actually visited.

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, oh, you should I spend time living in Atenas so in Costa Rica for a little while. Where is that? It's like, an hour from Jaco Beach, okay, just outside San Jose. And, yeah, Costa Rica is beautiful.

Mike Peterson: That's what I've heard. Yeah, yeah. So definitely put that on your bucket list. Did you mention earlier that you were citizen, that you had residency there?

Jennifer Harding: No, I had, I have residency in Panama, Panama. Okay, that's what I did. It under the friendly nations program many years ago.

Mike Peterson: Okay, so that, and they've changed that. They've changed that, so it's much more costly and higher. Yeah, okay, interesting. So what have we not covered yet?

Jennifer Harding: I don't know. What do you want to know?

Mike Peterson: Well, I'm just kind of, I've to be like, forthright. I've started down the process a couple times to look to get a second passport, but the paperwork involved and the timelines and everything, and I was just like, so I've never like actually followed through. So is it less daunting than it seems, or is it just you got to want it that bad to go down that route?

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, so we're trying to minimize the amount of work that the client needs to do for citizenship. It is a personal so you do have to provide a lot of personal documentation. So there is work involved on the side of the client, but we were helping with apostilles or helping with notarizations. We're trying to do that in house, or trying to facilitate that for you as much as possible. And we'll fill out the forms for you and just, you know, all you have to do is sign. So we try to minimize the amount of work that you need to do and streamline them.

Mike Peterson: Do you have any clients that are just like all right, I only want to go through this headache once, so we're going to do these three programs all at the same time, and just everything I need, I'll just get in triplicate and just go forward. Have you had anything like that?

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, I've had, I've had that before, and I've actually had that right now. Oh, really, when they're doing multiple programs, the new the newest programs I just launched, we had one guy. He's like, you know, if I don't do it, if I don't provide you the document, can you call my mom? I was like, I will get your mom on you. I'll get out the whip, and I'll get you to do it. You'll fit, you'll finish.

Mike Peterson: I love that. So what? What type of people can you not that? Like, if they call you up and you're just like, we can't work with you. Like, what is the what do you run into? You know, especially, I think, with like, the cypherpunk Bitcoin space, you know, you have a lot of anarchists. You know, maybe people that you know don't have a social security number or don't have any passport because they refuse to participate in their local you know, government, are you able to help people like that? Or is it just like, No, this process is too bureaucratic, and you're kind of out of luck.

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, so we've helped people that have don't have a bank account or at all. You've helped them successfully do citizenship by investment. People that are stateless, there are becoming programs that are available for you. If you're a stateless person, it's for citizenship.

Mike Peterson: I mean, so you're able, you've there are programs of people that don't have a current passport, that they could potentially get one somewhere?

Jennifer Harding: Potentially, we need to evaluate your case and what documents you do have to substitute being a state, to substitute the fact that you don't have citizenship or stateless. And then I guess my hard line is like, if you have a severe criminal record, yeah, depending what the nature of it is, a lot of these programs, you have to go through a background check. So if you have, if you're an arms dealer or something very negative, I won't say words on this, you know, on the podcast, but it's something severe, then, yeah, something we can't help, and sometimes even just having a minor criminal record. For some programs, it's a no go. But for other programs, there may be flexibility, depending on the specific situation.

Mike Peterson: So you need the clients to be honest with you up front, which I'm assuming they aren't always.

Jennifer Harding: From time to time. I mean, one situation that comes to mind is that man never disclosed that he was married to more than one person, and he forgot about it.

Mike Peterson: So we forgot that he was married to one person, or he just didn't think it was relevant?

Jennifer Harding: He went off and got married in Vegas one time or somewhere where, and I can't remember exactly where it was, and you know, when he was 21 just on a drunken night, and just completely forgot about it, but it came up in a background check, so we helped him navigate that. He successfully was able to get citizenship, but it was interesting conversation, and we can have conversations with each individual person in the family if your kid or someone else has a problem your spouse that you're not aware of. We're happy to manage and balance those situations.

Mike Peterson: But I'm assuming it's more helpful if people are up front with with what they're they're dealing with, they probably assume some of the things you guys just won't, won't come up.

Jennifer Harding: But yeah, for sure, we just, like any, any issue that you want to disclose, you can consult with us. We can try to consult with the citizenship unit to see if it's feasible. We don't want to take we don't want to waste someone's time. We don't want to waste your money and time, and you know, we want to have, want you to have a good experience and a positive experience. So we try to vet people at the beginning, and we do do significant background checks before we even onboard you as a client.

Mike Peterson: I know, not directly relevant, but I'm just curious if it's similar. I know, for a lot of people, I know that have residency in the US, having a DUI on their record is something that a lot of times, gets them removed from the country and or makes them ineligible for citizenship. Is that a uniquely us thing? And I don't know if you know what a DUI is, because you're not American, but yeah, we have had a lot driving under the influence, drunk driving. So is that something that would like keep people from being able to get in different programs?

Jennifer Harding: So in the past, it's never been an issue, because a lot of the citizenship programs have changed and are becoming more stringent depending on your specific situation, if it's for alcohol or for drugs or what it's for, to consult with us and we would try to verify it in advance. But in the past, we've had plenty of people with DUIs be accepted.

Mike Peterson: So you guys kind of at least, if you know what you're dealing with, you can say, Okay, well, we won't put you in for this program, because they're, you know, very stringent on that, but these other ones are open to you, yeah? And as...

Jennifer Harding: Well as some people, it's documentation, they might be able, not be able to get a specific document, yeah? Or they might not be eligible for a specific program, or they might not be able to include every single family member in their application. So some programs allow adult children that are not financially dependent on you to be included within an application. And then others, you have to be financially dependent, or you have to be in school, or you have to be below a specific age. So depending on family composition, as well, we can determine which program and which which is cool is that we're uniquely qualified in multiple countries to be a citizenship by investment agent, local agent. So we do the South Pacific, Africa, the Caribbean, El Salvador. So we can, because we do all these programs all the time. We're kind of up to date on at this given time, if it's something that would be acceptable or not.

Mike Peterson: Yeah, no, that was the other thing that I ran into when, when I was looking because my, my daughter's she's 21 and my, my son now is 18. And so I was like, will they be able to be included, you know, and at what extra cost? And so, so that's interesting to see that every country handles that differently.

Jennifer Harding: Yeah, a lot of the times when people come and they'll ask us, like, whether or not they should just apply alone and then add their family later, or include everyone in the family at the same time. Often, it's more cost effective to add everyone all at the same time and as well, they qualify at that period of time, versus if you decide to add them later on in life. There might be different circumstances surrounding their qualification for eligibility for citizenship.

Mike Peterson: Do you know what what it is for the for the El Salvador program, is it, does it include children? Does it include adult children? What is the Yeah.

Jennifer Harding: So it's, you can include children below the age of 18.

Mike Peterson: Okay, so, so no adult so my children wouldn't qualify?

Jennifer Harding: Then, at the moment, probably no, okay, officially, but we can always verify and see given your specific situation.

Mike Peterson: Yeah, well, I'm Hope, from my understanding, it's kind of like the tax thing. I've been told different things by different lawyers, but from, from my understanding, after one more year here, with five years of permanent residency, I should be able to apply for a passport. I mean, you still have to, you have to go through that, the History test, and you have to be able to sing the national anthem, and you have to, I think there's some, some other things that hoops you have to jump through, that that are not part of the when you pay the million dollars for it, but, but, yeah, we'll see. Because everybody I talked to gives me different stories.

Jennifer Harding: I feel like they should be giving you a passport, like all the all the work that you've done here in El Salvador and Bitcoin Beach, and I listened to some of your talks at both Adopting Bitcoin and and Bitcoin historical as well. And just it's extraordinary.

Mike Peterson: Good word for me tell them there, we need to give them a passport. Well, so how can people enlist your services? What are the first steps like? Can Can people set up a call to find out if this is something that they should consider? Give us kind of the rundown of how they can utilize your service services and and what type of you know if there's upfront fees involved, or if you know how all that works?

Jennifer Harding: Yeah. So you can visit our website at JHMarlin.com I also have a YouTube channel. Jennifer Harding Marlin, Citizenship by Investment. We talk about citizenship by investment, residency by investment and relocation topics. And you can also send me an email at Jennifer at JHMarlin.com or, you know, feel free to call me if you want as well and make sure that if you did like and watch this video that you, you know, let us know that you saw it. And yeah, we'd be happy to chat and see that, see more about your specific situation and how we can help and how we can help and how we can work together, and how we can make your dream happen. And, yeah, perfect.

Mike Peterson: All right, well, well, we'll have to revisit next year, and hopefully you will have gotten me a passport there, you know, as an ambassador for El Salvador and and maybe there'll be some updates on the program here. We'll get a take on where, where it is in the world of second passports, this seems to be a very growing point of interest out there in the world. So we appreciate your time.

Jennifer Harding: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And you have a really beautiful setup right here. So if anyone hasn't been to Bitcoin Beach, come check it out. Awesome. Yeah.