You Think You’re Sovereign Until You Test Bitcoin In The Real World (Not On Twitter) | Efrat Fenigson

What if the real trap is not working hard, it is spending your best years building someone else’s empire with money you do not even trust?

Mike Peterson sits down with Efrat Fenigson (@efenigson) during Bitcoin Historico for a blunt conversation about the fiat system, corporate life, and why “growth for growth’s sake” eventually stops making sense. Efrat explains how years of being great at driving revenue for other people pushed her toward a bigger question: who is this all really for?

Before Bitcoin, Efrat Fenigson was deep in the tech world, first as a developer in Australia, then rising to executive roles in Israel. She talks about being a woman in tech on male-dominated teams, the early career reality behind the kinds of paths people imagine when they search video game designer job opportunities, and the moment she realized the work was not the same as purpose.

Then things get personal. Efrat shares what happened when she spoke out during Covid, how backlash followed, and why free speech became a line she would not cross, even if it cost her socially and professionally. This is the part of the story where “play it safe” stops being advice and starts being a warning.

Bitcoin enters through one sharp question that changed everything, “can they touch it?” Efrat Fenigson describes why self-custody, sound money, and censorship resistance felt like freedom tech, not just finance. It is also where her drive for financial independence turns into something broader, a freedom movement mindset built around sovereignty and personal responsibility.

Finally, they zoom out to Bitcoin adoption in El Salvador, including Bitcoin Beach in El Zonte and what a real circular economy looks like when it is not just theory. Efrat and Mike Peterson talk about merchants accepting Bitcoin, why even small savings windows can change how people plan their lives, and why on-the-ground reality matters more than headlines.

-Bitcoin Beach Team

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Browse through this quick guide to learn more about the episode:

00:00:00 - Intro: Observing the reality of Bitcoin in El Salvador 
00:08:13 - How do you become a global CMO in Israel? 
00:09:43 - How can single motherhood and divorce debt push someone to pursue financial independence and retire early? 
00:13:58 - Why do high earners quit corporate jobs? 
00:17:51 - What happens when you speak out during Covid? 
00:21:11 - How did Efrat Fenigson get into Bitcoin?  
00:21:47 - Can the government seize Bitcoin? What does ‘can they touch it’ mean for self-custody and censorship resistance?  
00:34:52 - Is Bitcoin still being used in El Salvador? What is Bitcoin Beach in El Zonte really like for visitors?  
00:41:20 - Why do merchants accept Bitcoin in El Salvador? Does Bitcoin adoption actually help small businesses save money?  
00:42:13 - Why is Bitcoin called freedom tech? How does sound money connect to a freedom movement and personal sovereignty? 

Live From Bitcoin Beach

Transcript

Efrat Fenigson: And yeah, the whole shenanigans with the IMF and everything that has happened, repealing the legal tender status of Bitcoin, I kept observing. It didn't matter, I think, because the government continues being friendly towards it. The people keep embracing it and adopting it. The grassroots movements continue to work. So does it matter what someone defines it as? You know, the IMF says this, it's not a legal tender anymore. I don't care about those definitions. What I care is observing what it's really like in reality, and it works.

Mike Peterson: Efrat, we finally get to sit down on my side. I get to ask the questions this time. So I'm excited about this.

Efrat Fenigson: Where? In the most incredible place.

Mike Peterson: This is, from what I'm told, this was like their Congress building, and so this is where they would like take the votes for the laws of El Salvador.

Efrat Fenigson: And do you know that there are 21 chairs and tables here?

Mike Peterson: I did not know that. Wow.

Efrat Fenigson: Yes, 21. I don't know why, but you know, things just line up.

Mike Peterson: Yeah, that's perfect. So how many times have you been to El Salvador now?

Efrat Fenigson: Three now.

Mike Peterson: Three now. Okay.

Efrat Fenigson: And I love it more every time I come.

Mike Peterson: When was your first trip?

Efrat Fenigson: A year and a bit ago. A year and a little ago. Yeah.

Mike Peterson: Okay. So before we get started, or as we're starting, let's, I want to hear just a little bit about your backstory. We've obviously had lots of conversations, we've talked, but I don't know how you got into the Bitcoin space, you know, what your focus is, and I know you have a podcast and so tell us a little bit about your history and what, why you're here in El Salvador.

Efrat Fenigson: Okay. So my history, I think, interestingly for people to know is that I was born and raised in Israel. Born in 1980, lived there until I was 21 after serving the army for a couple of years, which is what all girls in Israel do.

Mike Peterson: Is it? I thought it was only one year for women.

Efrat Fenigson: It's actually one year and nine months. They keep changing, but it's around two years.

Mike Peterson: But it's more for men, right?

Efrat Fenigson: Three years for guys. Yes. So when we're 18, we have to go to the army right after high school. No breaks normally. Straight from high school to the army.

Mike Peterson: And then if you're going to university, it's after.

Efrat Fenigson: Yes, but most young Israelis when they finish the IDF, they just want to get the hell out of Israel and clean their heads from everything that has happened during the army service. It's not an easy thing. So they normally go traveling for between six to 12 months, and that's why you see a lot of young Israelis in India and South America. That's right. That's normally when they finish the army that they go traveling. I didn't do that. So when I finished my army service, I started studying straight away. I studied Computer Science and the last year of my degree was actually in Australia. I did an exchange program and so I moved to Australia at 21 and lived there for six years and became a programmer. I was a developer in the beginning of my journey. That's right. And I used to write code for Nintendo, Xbox, and PlayStation games for about three years. It was nice. I liked it, but it wasn't my true passion and calling in life.

Mike Peterson: I'm just curious, were there very many other females in that space at that time?

Efrat Fenigson: No, I was the only, I was the only developer in that company.

Mike Peterson: I thought I was going to say, I imagine that was a very male-dominated, yeah.

Efrat Fenigson: Very male-dominated field, and I worked for three different companies and I was always the only female developer. They were not huge companies, they were small, but statistically speaking, there are very few females who are developers. Today, I think there are more because awareness is growing. But I know back then, especially in the video game space, back in 2002, 2003, it was quite rare. I remember by the way, this funny story, when I was in university and we studied a course about mobile development, and back then, think 2001, the iPhone didn't even come out yet. No, not for I think another eight or nine years. So they were teaching us, yeah, how to build websites on mobile phones. And the lecturer was so enthusiastic and he loved that topic so much because he believed that that is going to be the next revolution, mobile. And we were all looking at him as like, "What are you talking about? We've got these nice, nice PCs and laptops were just starting," and he's already running forward to the mobile revolution. I'm like, "No, this is weird, like developing small websites on those small phones."

Mike Peterson: Oh, and they were so painful to try to use at that time.

Efrat Fenigson: And he foresaw the future and I mean, he did obviously participate in a lot of forward-thinking panels and like groups to get him to be exposed to that kind of future that is coming. But down the track, it only took two, three, four years until mobile became, you know, the new computer in your hand, the iPhone, then changed everything. And I was lucky to be part of that transition, I think, seeing, I mean, I was born in the '80s, so I was born with hardly any technology around me. And only as I was growing, eight, nine, 10 years old, we had our first PC at home and I was exposed to technology as I was growing up, seeing it transition from the personal computer to the mobile phone and now, you know, internet and game over. Like, you know where we are now. But I was always around technology and I really liked seeing the development of that tool and how it comes into our lives. And so for me to become a developer and play my role in that world was, you know, it was kind of, I was open to it. It was nice. I knew it's not the right thing for me because I could feel that every morning I wake up and I go to work, it's not like I'm not the most passionate about this. And I know myself, I can be passionate about stuff. So I knew that at one point I'm going to leave that, but I had no idea what else I'm going to do because I was young, I was 25. But at one point, it was too much for me and I decided to quit.

Mike Peterson: And was that in Australia?

Efrat Fenigson: In Australia. Yeah, I decided to quit and I was really afraid of what my parents are going to say because they invested in me and the university and all that stuff and living abroad. I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm going to drop all that," and I had no idea what I wanted to do, but I do want to do business. I knew that I'm attracted to the whole business world, but I had no education about that and I did not plan to go back to university. Like, I've done my thing, that's it, it's enough. I've already understood that university is a nice tool to get your diploma, but it's not really what's going to progress you in life. So I decided, and I'm also that kind of person that is very experiential, so I need to experience things on my own, like doing them and then I know that I like it, don't like it, good at it, not good at it. So I decided to open a business and at 25, I opened a business in Australia. I had two stores for jewelry and accessories and I studied everything I needed to study about business, like hiring people, doing procurement, import-export, selling, buying, and marketing. And I really liked the marketing and sales part of it. So as I decided to go back to Israel after six years in Australia, I took that experience with me and decided to go back to the tech industry, but this time to the business side of things. So I found my first job there in tech.

Mike Peterson: Were you in Tel Aviv or where were you?

Efrat Fenigson: Yes, I was in the Tel Aviv area and that was when I was 27. So I started my career journey in tech again in Israel and I had worked for different global companies, all tech, different types of industries. Video, sorry, not games, video. So the platforms that enable TV broadcasting and security of TV networks and things like that. Drones, automated drones. Actually, commercial real estate, but also the tech behind it and how you make places smarter with tech for real estate. And I was consulting to startups as well. I was doing a lot of work around marketing because marketing became, like once I started putting my fingers into the marketing world in tech, I fell in love. It felt like home, like this is the right thing for me to do. And so very quickly I rose up, you could say, to a very high-level position for a young person. At 36, I was a VP of Marketing or Chief Marketing Officer in tech companies, global tech companies, not local, because Israel is a very small market. So I was always because of my English and my passion, I was always in the global market. And I knew that that's the right place for me. And I was earning a lot of money, doing quite well in life. But then my personal story was weaving into that career journey, which I really liked and I wanted to pursue, but then I was with my boyfriend that I'd met in Australia. And when we moved to Israel, it was very hard for him to assimilate. And so after three, four years after we had a baby together, we got married, we had a baby, and then one year after the baby was born, we got divorced and he left back to Australia. So at 31, a career woman, really passionate about life and about tech and about career and all that, is finding herself with a one-year-old baby having to kind of start all over again. And the main question was: How do I even make this work? How can I be a mom and a career woman? And I love what I do and not tear myself apart because it felt like mission impossible. So I decided to move close to my parents so that they can support me and help me in raising my son, which was a very smart decision at the time so I could keep my job. It was very hard in Fiat world to provide for a child on your own, especially when the father was not like a big provider.

Mike Peterson: No, I'm always amazed at single parents because, I mean, my wife and I are pulling our hair out sometimes just, you know, between the two of us and so it's, yeah, I can imagine how it was.

Efrat Fenigson: It's hard. It's hard and I was in debt at that time because my ex-husband had a small business when he was in Israel and Israel is ruthless. If you are not Israeli and you're not a good business person or a good entrepreneur or even an employee for a company, you're going to get crushed very quickly because the economy is very hard. It's tough to survive. And the culture in Israel is also quite aggressive. So if you're not, you know, one of those people, then it's hard. And it was hard for him. So the business wasn't going very well for him. So when we got divorced, I took over his debt because I really wanted to get divorced. And so just to get the divorce, I was like, "No problem, I'll take the debt, I'll figure it out, you can go back to Australia to do what you want to do as long as we're divorced and I can start my life over again." Little did I know that he would go back there because I really thought that he would stay and live next to his son. I didn't think I'd be a single mom. And that was a big shock for me. It was a big breakdown in my life at the time, but I handled it. I mean, I had to every time a crisis comes to my front door, I welcome it. I go, "Okay, if this is what I need to deal with, that's what I'm going to deal with and I'm going to make it work." And I did. And within two years, I think, I paid off the debt to my parents. My parents covered that debt for me. So I paid them off after two years of working really hard. And I tried to spend as much time as I could with my son while working in a place that required me to travel about three hours a day. Like three hours commute a day. Yeah. But I really needed a job and I, you know, I needed to provide for my son like I needed to make this all work. So I had to make some compromises and see my son maybe less than what I would have liked to but still keep a job and make it all work. And yeah, quite quickly, you know, I was doing well, starting to save money. And as I was turning 40 and starting my last job in my old life, my Fiat life, I decided that I'm going to this time it's going to be different, like I'm going to spend more time with my son, I'm going to make shitloads of money, I'm going to save up, and I'm going to retire after this one. And little did I know that I'm going to meet Bitcoin in the middle of that journey, but I just envisioned that that's how it's going to work because I was 40 already. I felt like I'm, you know, I don't want to work my ass off for the rest of my life. Like there's got to be a better thing than that, than just like work, work, work in this Fiat world. And so I...

Mike Peterson: And what kind of, I'm curious as to what sparked that mindset because most people, you know, they plan on working until they're 65 and that's kind of what their expectation is. Like they wouldn't, it seems crazy to them to even think that there's different, I do know in the US they have, you know, what they call the FIRE community, the Financial Independence Retire Early. You have that's kind of a niche community.

Efrat Fenigson: I didn't know that. Interesting.

Mike Peterson: Yeah, it's kind of a community that's sprung up probably over the last six, seven years in the US that, and there's actually a lot of podcasts around it and stuff. So I'm just curious as to what made you start to think down that road.

Efrat Fenigson: Yeah, there are two things. One is as I, when I was very young and I started my very, very first job before the developing video games, it was also a tech company as a developer. I was the only one, the only woman, sorry, out of all these men. We would come in at 8:00 a.m. in the morning and finish working at 8:00 p.m. because there was so much work. And that was my first job. And I was on a three-months trial because it was my very first job. And at the end of these three months, I looked back and I'm like, "No, that's not what I signed up for. This is not what life should look like." I was young, I was 21, 22, but I felt that it's wrong for people to kind of sell their soul to the devil. Like be a slave to this workplace while life is happening. So I quit after those three months and that's where I found the other job in Australia being a developer in a studio games company and they actually wanted people to finish work at five and to go do their thing. They appreciated people's time and I felt that that was a lot more sane. That was a lot more, it makes sense. So I always had this respect towards myself and my life that I don't want to waste it just being someone's slave, right? It was this intuitive understanding. And then fast forward to that time when I'm 40 years old and it's like my last Fiat job. I think what sparked that understanding is the same thing as when I was 20, it was like, "I'm not going to waste my life making money for someone, the CEO of the company or a co-founder because I've done that so many times because I'm very good at making money for other people. Like I can set up global marketing operations for companies that work flawlessly, build funnels, make sure the customers come in, they drive revenues for the company. The company has investors often times in Silicon Valley, often times in New York, they both make money for other people that make money for other people that make money for other people that make money for the Fed that just prints it out." So I was aware of the fact that this is growth for the sake of growth. I did not know the Fiat system. I did not know Bitcoin at that time, but I knew that this money, like I tried to trace it back to where it starts and it always starts with banks or bankers that are just creating money out of nothing and again that made no sense in my logical brain. I shouldn't be a slave for someone who's making money just to make money. I should be making money either for myself or for other people in order to drive something good in this world, in order to make a significant difference. And that wasn't really making a significant difference and that's why I knew that that's going to be like my last. And you know, and I kind of guess I kind of manifested that because then COVID started. That was 2020. And when COVID started, I started waking up to a lot of the lies that were being told around the world. I'm already 40, I think I'm mature enough to handle, you know, facing the truth and face facing the lies more, more accurately and then start acting on it because when you see that the state is lying to you about you know, coercing you into doing stuff in your life that you don't want to do, breaking or violating your civil liberties and your like the way you honor your body and the way you honor yourself and other people telling you what to do, that was one step too far for me. And so I became an activist and I started speaking out and I went to the streets to talk about all these violations, all these measurements and policies of the government that are an overreach in my opinion. And it was a conscious decision because I knew I'm going to pay a price. I knew as a CMO of a big company with 250 employees, reporting directly to the CEO, making a lot of money, a lot of people look up to me and I manage a lot of things in the company, I knew I'm going to pay a price. And I made the decision to do it anyway because it was more important than anything else. And so I've done that for my son and for myself and I spoke out and I'm that was I think that's the thing that I'm most proud of in my life that I had spoken up and stood up during COVID and talked about everything that was going on and I also started creating content in English.

Mike Peterson: And so was there, were there repercussions then for for that?

Efrat Fenigson: Yeah, I got dubbed by people it's funny because it's not really a dub because everything was out in the open, but a lot of people thought that it would make sense to send emails to my employer and tell them that I'm posting those things on social media and saying I'm an anti-vaxxer, they called me all these kind of names and would dub on me to my workplace hoping for them to fire me. They didn't because I was a really good employee. But I was suffering because people were attacking me online and trying to get me fired and it wasn't nice. It wasn't fun during that time. And you can also feel how people are gossiping about you and I also had another...

Mike Peterson: It was crazy how that time like turned people against each other and it was it was insane.

Efrat Fenigson: Hating each other, being very fearful. Yeah, it was insane. It was insane. It was insane. And I was confident enough in my own skin to be who I am and to speak truth to power in order to not stop doing what I was doing, but many people around me were scared shitless to speak out. And I hoped that I could inspire them to do the same. And I know I did, but on the most part, it was people that I didn't know and all the people that I did know were friends of mine or even family members, you know, I disconnected with and they they were criticizing me and they couldn't handle "What has happened to you?" you know, "What have you become?" and "Why are you criticizing the government? Why are you criticizing, you know, they're trying to do good and save us and here you are like you're crazy," and you know, I didn't care. And I was trying to be very respectful towards everyone, but still hold my ground. Yeah. So it was not easy, but I pulled through and at one moment when I was in the street speaking out and doing my thing with my megaphone and everything, there was apparently, I didn't know, but there was a guy standing there watching me from afar and he was the number one Bitcoiner in Israel. He was looking at me from afar saying, "She gets it all. She gets the scams, she gets the fraud, the corruption of the government. She gets the separation of state from people's lives. How come she's not a Bitcoiner?" and he approached me and he said, you know, "You should be a Bitcoiner, have you heard about it?" And I told him actually I did hear about it, "Can you teach me?" because I was waiting for someone to teach me. I was curious about it. And so he did and we sat together and he gracefully answered all my questions and he helped me do my first transaction. And the first question I had for him is "Can they touch it?" and he goes, "No, the government cannot stop it." And I'm like, "Are you sure?" and he said, "Yes, I'm sure they cannot stop it." I said, "Wow, that's revolutionary." Like if I have a tool in my hand that the government cannot touch and it can help me with my work and with my life and to just speak out freely and not have the repercussion of someone coming to seize what's mine or confiscate my property or hurt me in any way because I could see how you know the way they tried to hurt me as I was speaking out, maybe they'll come for my property next. Who knows how crazy this is going to go. So I felt really secure in starting that journey with Bitcoin and I did. I was a good student, as I am. I love learning on my own, I'm an that kind of person, so I was diving deep very quickly and as I was leaving my last workplace and buying more Bitcoin, I started developing the conviction to stand on my own two feet and become more independent and I don't need another employer, I don't need another company, I don't need to work for anyone else, I can do it on my own like I'm fine discovering this sovereign world where...

Mike Peterson: And in the past you had always worked for other people.

Efrat Fenigson: Always. Except for one year when I was doing consulting, but throughout the last 20 years, on the most part and I told you before in between I had this business for jewelry, right? That was more a school for me than really being independent. But really I always worked for other people. So at that point in time I was like "I'm strong enough to do this and to go independent and now I also have this tool, this sovereign money, where I can really minimize my interfaces with the institutions as much as possible." I know it's not going to be 100% because I still need them or I still need to pay taxes wherever I am, wherever. I don't want to break the law, but I want to become as sovereign as I can be. So I started my journey on Bitcoin and before I knew it, I decided to go all in on speaking out through a podcast that I would start, through writing, through doing creating content online and through Bitcoin. And I mean, I never looked back. This was the biggest and best revelation I've ever had in my life.

Mike Peterson: So was it the being in the Bitcoin space that that convinced you to leave your Fiat job or was there something else that spurred it?

Efrat Fenigson: It was I think everything happened at the same time, in parallel, like around 2022 is when I decided to embark on a new journey and Bitcoin was coming stronger into my life and I was also experiencing from middle 2021 onwards I was experiencing some kind of spiritual awakening as well, so I was kind of discovering further who I am, why I am here, why are we here, like all these big questions were coming into my life and starting to confront the way I I conduct my life and how do I really want to live them and why am I actually here and you know as I was asking those questions it became clearer and clearer for me that I'm here to use my voice. Like the my biggest gift in life is my voice and that's also why I called my podcast Your the Voice because I was in a quest or in a journey to rediscover or re-remember that gift that I have that was suppressed with time because of the Fiat world, because of the control mechanism that we live under, because of the suppression of our powers as human beings and that that spark that is kind of igniting that journey again to rediscover who I am and my powers and my voice, it was just so liberating. It was so great. And so was happening in parallel and Bitcoin was like the I call it the escorting force, right? As I was waking up, as I was taking ownership of my of my life, of my strength, of my power, as I was rediscovering my voice, Bitcoin was there with me to help me do those things. And obviously as you do, when you go down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, I had understood that not only that this is a great monetary tool, this is also a great tool for sovereignty, freedom, and spiritual awakening. So I started weaving that into my content. And my podcast, which at started for, you know, just speaking out about tyranny and and you know going full force freedom and sovereignty and things like that, Bitcoin just was just perfect match to that combination. So I started interviewing Bitcoiners and and I think life became a lot more interesting since that came into my life. And and the way I see it is that we have this puzzle, like we try to make sense of this world. We try to like piece those pieces of the puzzle together to kind of understand what this reality is all about and what the dynamics of powers are trying to do in the world and where are we, little little plebs, where are we in this picture, right? What is our role here? And I just find finding it fascinating to decipher that. Because it's all the way I see it, like my life philosophy is that this is all a game and we're here to learn lessons and develop ourselves as we go through the different levels of the game. You know, maybe it's ironic that I started my career as a games developer, so I learned a lot about gaming. But if this is really all a game and by the way this is ties beautifully to the fact that we take life too seriously and too dramatically I think. And if we try to lighten up what this whole experience is is really just a game to learn lessons and experience things and go from one level to the next, just level up all the time. And at one point we die. And when we die, it continues. It doesn't end there. Yeah, the physical experience finishes, but something else continues. I mean, and it's not new. It probably was like that even before this physical period of lifetime began. So I think our souls are eternal and I think we're here to experience as many things and having an experience in a physical body on the third dimension reality is part of that long spiritual game. And so if that is the case, then what we have to confront, I think the biggest thing we have to confront in life is death, is the fear of death. Because we live life being so fearful of death, doing everything we can do to prevent that from happening, but that is going to happen whether we want it or not.

Mike Peterson: I'm going to die. We're all going to die.

Efrat Fenigson: We're all going to die. And if that is going to happen, then how can I live what I have to live in the best possible way fulfilling my full potential to the max? And once I die, I don't feel any regret or any fear anymore. This is like "Okay, if it needs to happen, it happens." And you know Walker was interviewing me for his podcast the other day, I think it was a year ago or so when Iran was launching missiles into Israel and I told him before we started recording "If the alarm goes off, just so you know there may be missiles, but I'm not going anywhere because this is how I do it. So we're going to keep going." He said, "Oh okay," and he didn't think that that's going to happen and it happened. During the podcast. One hour into the podcast, the alarm goes off and the the missiles start falling and apparently they fell very close to my house in Tel Aviv. And so the missile is falling and it goes boom and I jump and Walker's face are completely white and he goes "Oh my God, are you sure you don't want to go to shelter?" and I tell him "Dude, I told you, if it's my day to go, it's my day to go, let's go, let's do it. I'm not surrendering to these things. Like it's not it's okay, it's happening, but if I feel that there's a real danger I will go to shelter, but it's fine."

Mike Peterson: You can't be a prisoner to your fear either.

Efrat Fenigson: Exactly. But it's fine, let's go. And we kept on going. And he took this he made a clip out of it, it went viral because people are not used to seeing, you know, a woman under missiles doing a Bitcoin podcast. So it was kind of radical. But that's the way I live life. You know, if I need to go right now, it's all good, you know, I love my son, please take care of my son, you know or I don't know where the camera is, but I've got Bitcoin, it's all good, you know, this is what I'm here for. To play the game the best I can.

Mike Peterson: Have you, is your son ever come to any of the conferences with you?

Efrat Fenigson: He did once to a Bitcoin conference in Sydney in Australia. He lives in Australia.

Mike Peterson: Oh he does. Okay.

Efrat Fenigson: Yeah, yeah. So this is what I didn't tell you. So at 13 and a half years old when the war in Israel started, October 7th happened in 2023, a week later he told me "I want to go live with Dad." And I honor that because he always kept really good relationship with his dad and his dad is a really good dad. Doesn't matter that he didn't live next to him, he always kept in touch. He was a really good father. And I was like, "Okay, I guess this is time to do this conversation." So we talked about if he goes, he's not coming back anytime soon because of the army because we don't want him to go to the army and if he will be back after 16, they will draft him. And so he has to know that if he goes, he's not coming back for a while. And the second thing is the conversation about me as a mother not having any ownership over him. That's my again my philosophy is that we those kids are choosing us as parents. And our role here is to do as best we can in mentoring them and guiding them and securing them, keeping them safe from harm and giving them the best education we can, but at one point when they need to go, they need to go. And we need to be there for them to support them and help them and guide them as best we can, but we can't hold them back because they're not ours. They're theirs, they're their own creature and we're here to just support them. So I did that conversation with him as well. He he appreciated that. And then a month or two months later I went to Australia to see him and the new school and his new house and I saw that everything's fine. So I had to just let go and it was heartbreaking for me. It was very hard. I actually I think I felt the pain in my womb, like really felt it physically. And for one month I think I was recovering, like integrating this into my life and embodying the experience and and really letting him go. And then I started my nomad life because that was two years ago. I decided that "Okay, now that I don't have a child to take care of anymore and I'm into Bitcoin and I'm speaking at all those conferences around the world and I'm interviewing people for my podcast just like you, I want to go and travel and see the world and have a different perspective over my life and home and all everything I think about home," and live life differently. And so that's what I'm doing.

Mike Peterson: So you've been traveling for the last two years? I didn't realize that. Wow. So where where have you spent time?

Efrat Fenigson: Ooh, so in so many different places. I've been nomading everywhere. The US, I don't know, five, six different states. El Salvador three times. I've been to Argentina, Brazil, in Europe, I've been to Monaco, Prague, Lugano, Riga. I've been to Bali, Australia, Thailand.

Mike Peterson: Is it usually tied to a Bitcoin event?

Efrat Fenigson: Most times it's tied to Bitcoin conferences, but sometimes I just take time to chill in places that I love with people that I love. And I get to I feel so grateful because I meet all those beautiful awakened souls everywhere in the world that I get to form new relationships and new connections with. So even though I had to say goodbye to so many people from my old life and let go of circles of friends, I found out that we have new friends waiting for us along the way. Even when we're 45 years old or 44 years old, it's just happening and it's just beautiful. Yeah.

Mike Peterson: So having experienced so many different places, I'm curious as your perspective on El Salvador with with their Bitcoin adoption. Do you see anything different in El Salvador and and how does the El Salvador you see on the ground compared to, you know, what what you see in the media?

Efrat Fenigson: Right. So I'll separate the two, so the media in the end. But first, from my experience having been to so many different circular economies or places where Bitcoin is accepted or at least friendly towards it, what I find that is different here in El Salvador is that it's on the state level, it's a nation-state that is embracing that. And yeah, the whole shenanigans with the IMF and everything that has happened, repealing the legal tender status of Bitcoin, I kept observing. It didn't matter I think because the government continues being friendly towards it, the people keep embracing it and adopting it, the grassroots movements continue to work. So does it matter what someone defines it as? You know, the IMF says this, it's not a legal tender anymore. I didn't care about a degree of university when I was 25 years old and started my own business, why would I care about a definition of a legal tender now? You know, I don't care about those definitions, what I care is observing what it's really like in reality, and it works.

Mike Peterson: That's what I tell people I'm like, they're like "Well it's all change," you're like, actually Bitcoin adoption just continues to grow and people continue to understand it better.

Efrat Fenigson: And and when I put my marketeer hat on and I look at this from a you know and people I know that people think when I say marketing people straight away think about advertising and PR and that's not what marketing is not for me anyway. After being a marketeer for 25 years, I can tell you marketing is all about providing value. It's all about knowing who your target audience is and providing the best value you can give them and being in an engagement with that audience. And so if this is marketing and you look at Bitcoin adoption in the world as a trajectory that is happening as it's a journey that is happening and we're very early, yeah, it's only 15 years since it started if you compare that to any other tech that is being adopted, it's very young. And so in that journey, El Salvador is playing a key role in getting the world to understand what it's like when a nation-state embraces a new technology, embraces a new mindset, a new way of thinking. And that role has not changed because of a legal status yes or no. That role continues to play. And I believe that it is still the leading country in the world that is doing the most important thing for Bitcoin adoption out of any other country. And and that role is super important and people need to let go of the cynicism and the resignation and respect that, honor that, right? Because it's it's playing a role, let it keep doing what it's doing. It will do what it needs to do anyway, right? Whether you like it or not or yell about it or not, it's going to it's going to continue unravel, which is beautiful. You just let it organically do what it needs to do. So that's one. Two, in terms of media and how people perceive it, they've been you know defaming Bukele and saying things about him, calling him a dictator, all these kind of stuff. And I am allergic to tyranny, it's actually written in my biography on Twitter. I'm allergic to tyranny, like I can smell it. I've been observing, I've been observing Israel, I've been observing the United States, I've been observing El Salvador, I've been observing many other places. I think on the most part politics around the world is corrupt to the core. I think politicians have been corrupted and largely because of the Fiat game, because of the Fiat incentive structure and because of the reality we live in in which power, control, and money rule more than anything else, more than values, more than than ideology, more than than being humane. Just staying a good human being with a kind good heart, like very simple stuff. And Bukele is a politician. And in my hundred-plus episodes of my podcast I have interviewed more than a handful of politicians in Australia, in Germany, in in Switzerland, so I had a few like five or six politicians on my show. And the connecting thread between all of them is that they're good people with good hearts that want the best for humanity and they actually speak about their constituents. They care about the people they serve and they live to serve the people. And that's the work of a politician, they want to serve humanity, they want to serve the public that they that gave them their trust and their vote. And from my observation, Bukele wants to do good for people. That's what I find about him. Yeah, you can criticize some of his actions and I think critical thinking and criticism is healthy and it should be in place, especially especially for politicians for sure. You need to criticize them. They need to see what people think that is right or wrong or too much or too little. But you also got to be like what's the word I'm looking for? Be truthful enough and humble enough to give credit to someone when it's due and say "Okay they're doing good in the world, they're actually respecting people's lives, trying to improve their situation, trying to build new things that will actually better their lives." And this is happening here in El Salvador, this is the third time I'm here and I'm seeing this with my own eyes, like the last two times I was here I stayed for several weeks and I visited Berlin and I visited El Zonte, I visited many different types of communities and I actually even interviewed merchants on the street that are accepting Bitcoin. People without teeth, I love them like they're they're so happy. Asking them why do you accept Bitcoin? And they say "We accept it because it gives us more business, new tourists that are coming in because of this and because it helps us save." But their saving maybe just for a week or a month, but that's a lot for them. It's not just living day by day, it's living week or a month ahead and that's big for them. Then they can start thinking about what they're going to do in the next month. And us coming from the West being so privileged, we don't see that as a significant thing, but that is super significant for people on the ground and that's what I care about.

Mike Peterson: It takes them out of just survival mode, they're actually going from just surviving to to thinking about they could build something better in their life, they could do something more.

Efrat Fenigson: And and that is inspiring for me. When I speak to those people and I see what it actually does in their lives, I don't need any government propaganda to tell me if it's good or bad, I can exercise my own I don't know how much IQ I've got to put my own mind together and decide that this is actually a beneficial thing for people on the ground. And that's what I care about. Everything I do, everything I talk about like even the tough stuff that I handle like things like October 7th or the war with Palestine or whatever. Whenever I speak about the other side and I talk about how humans are suffering in their reality, I do that because I want to bring a little bit more sanity to the world, a little bit more humanity, a little bit more open-heartedness. And I am willing to pay the prices, I'm willing to take the consequences that come with speaking out about non-popular topics. But as long as I know that that may make someone else's lives better, I'm willing to do it. So I think people need to let go of the bullshit arguments and and you know picking and fighting on on criticism and just you know see that people are actually doing better and that's what's important. And we are living in such a such a tough decade that by the end of it we're still going to experience a lot more wars and hunger and like bad shit that's going to happen. A lot of shit's going to hit the fan. And in that kind of time I think it becomes even more critical to poke holes in people's consciousnesses and make them see the other side, the other person, make them open their hearts, make them understand that what's really important in this point in time is really help humanity go through that shit show and develop more sovereignty and more and more resilience in order to sustain life and sustain communities and sustain countries and and try and decentralize power centers as much as we can. So yeah, if I can fulfill my little role in life by doing what I'm doing then I'm grateful.

Mike Peterson: No, that's I think that's a very positive note to end on. I know you've had a long day, you've been speaking here at the conference so we won't we won't let this go too long. But I do want to make sure that people know where they can follow you, let anything about the podcast that you want them to know, any of your writings that you do or any other way that they can follow or or get in contact.

Efrat Fenigson: Yes, so I have a blog on Substack which I'd love you to sign up for. It's free and I write from time to time. I also write for Bitcoin Magazine and other magazines. And X is my most active platform, that's where you can follow me for daily updates. Telegram has recently banned me.

Mike Peterson: Oh has it? Telegram has banned you?

Efrat Fenigson: So I'm censored on Telegram, but...

Mike Peterson: And what's what's on X? Where can I find you? What's the?

Efrat Fenigson: So just hit my name Efrat Fenigson because there are not many with that kind of name and you'll find me.

Mike Peterson: It's it's not like being named Mike Peterson where Mike Peterson there's like a million of us so.

Efrat Fenigson: That's right, there's only one as far as I know. There are many impersonators and scammers, so beware of them and I have more than 100,000 followers on my account so that's how you can recognize me. And my podcast is called Your the Voice, more than 100 episodes now, it's on all the platforms: YouTube, Spotify, Rumble, and and X, of course.

Mike Peterson: And take the time to write a review for her podcast because I know that's very helpful. So just literally take you 30 seconds just a quick review, it's always very helpful for podcasts. And Efrat, thank you for letting me hijack your studio last time I was here. You should watch those episodes I did in Efrat's studio because it's so beautiful at El Zonte and thanks for building El Zonte in the way it is. I really appreciate your help.

Efrat Fenigson: No, I love when podcasters come through and we can make that available to them, they can showcase what's happening in El Salvador so yeah we're always up for that. And also shout-out to Paco that is helping you and me whenever. Paco is the man, without him none of these podcasts would exist. Nothing would have happened, so thank you so much for your help in that. I love the collaboration, thank you.

Mike Peterson: All right, well we will we'll have to do a follow-up in another I'm sure you'll be here in another six months or so. I will. So we'll do a follow-up but I appreciate your time today.

Efrat Fenigson: Thank you.