Bitcoiners - Live From Bitcoin Beach

Is El Salvador Still Bitcoin Country? Here’s What Actually Changed | Mike Peterson

• Mike Peterson

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This is a special episode from The Sovereign Podcast, hosted by Michael Ruiz, where Mike Peterson joined as a guest.

In this conversation, Mike shares the full story of Bitcoin Beach and how a grassroots project in El Zonte helped inspire El Salvador to make Bitcoin legal tender. He talks about how the project began, the challenges of community building, and the mindset shift that happens when people start earning in Bitcoin. From keeping youth out of gangs to showing the world what a working circular economy looks like, Mike explains the lessons learned from years on the ground.

You’ll hear about the transformation of El Salvador, from a country once shaped by fear to one filled with optimism and opportunity. The discussion explores IMF loan conditions that influenced recent Bitcoin policy, what they mean in practice, and why the local Bitcoin circular economy is stronger than ever. Mike shares his perspective on growth, from grassroots work in small towns to attracting global attention and investment.

For anyone interested in starting a Bitcoin-friendly community, Mike offers actionable advice: start small, build real relationships, and use media to bring in outside support. The conversation also digs into how libertarian ideals intersect with practical governance, what it takes to balance development with preserving local character, and why Bitcoin education is becoming part of the national curriculum.

Whether you’re a Bitcoiner, policy watcher, or someone passionate about economic freedom, this episode delivers insights on Bitcoin adoption, sustainable community building, and the long-term vision for El Salvador. Stick around until the end, when they get into the realities of development, property rights, and why even libertarians sometimes agree on a little regulation.

-Bitcoin Beach Team


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https://www.youtube.com/@sovmindset 


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Browse through this quick guide to learn more about the episode:

00:00 How did Bitcoin Beach begin as a grassroots project in El Zonte
08:45 What inspired Mike Peterson to move to El Salvador full time
17:12 How a donor’s vision sparked a Bitcoin circular economy
25:30 What the IMF loan conditions mean for El Salvador’s Bitcoin law
36:20 How Bitcoin adoption is changing savings culture and community building
44:50 Practical advice for starting your own circular economy project
55:15 Why media strategy is essential for grassroots Bitcoin adoption
01:02:40 How gang violence reduction transformed daily life in El Salvador
01:15:05 What industries and opportunities El Salvador needs to grow
01:28:50 The future vision for Bitcoin Beach and global circular economies

Live From Bitcoin Beach

Mike Peterson:

Hey guys, we're going to do something a little bit different this week. We're here at the Baltimore badger conference here in Riga, and we're going to replay a interview that I did with Michael Ruiz. Been been in El Salvador for the last couple years. They created a studio. They're sovereign studios, and you can check out his page, the sovereign mindset, and he has a number of great long form and short form videos, but he agreed to let me replay the interview he did with me on our podcast this week. So I hope you enjoy it, and here you go. It's hard to describe to somebody without them seeing the transformation that happens in a young person when they start getting paid in Bitcoin, and they start for the first time, they're like questioning, should I spend it now versus save it for the future? You just see this total transformation in the mindset. It used to be people felt like life was just gonna keep getting worse. Now they're just full of hope.

Michael Ruiz:

I couldn't imagine what life was like with the gangs, but you've been here 20 years, what's that transformation been like here?

Mike Peterson:

People wouldn't go out on the streets. You'd go out at night, and it would be like a ghost town. People wouldn't send their kids to school, because that was a place where the gangs would do a lot of recruiting. And so I estimate there was probably about 25,000 youth a year that were joining the gangs. So you look, in the past five years, you're talking to over 100,000 youth who have been kept out of that lifestyle.

Michael Ruiz:

Do you have any tips for people that want to start creating their own Bitcoin circular economy in their neighborhood?

Mike Peterson:

Start small, and then whatever you think you want to do, shrink it down like 10% of that size? Of course, we had no idea what we were doing. I thought we'll talk to other people that are doing things like this. And we got down there like no. Nobody's doing anything like this. You guys are idiots. It'll never work. But we were committed. We're like, I'm gonna make this work. I get kind of surprised sometimes when I see things on Twitter, because I'm like, look around. Like things are like, booming Here

Michael Ruiz:

ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to the sovereign mindset Podcast. Today we have an absolute legend in the house in studio. He is the man behind bitcoin Beach, one of the pioneers who started the whole Bitcoin movement here in El Salvador. Mr. Mike Peterson, thank you for joining us.

Mike Peterson:

Hey, it's great to be here with you. Michael. I love the studio. You guys are doing some amazing stuff here. It's it's fun to see you know you come with this idea and and what it's turned into

Michael Ruiz:

awesome. Yes, thank you. So Mike, I actually want to start off with something I wrote, and maybe Matthias can put it up on the screen here. But it's something I wrote in 2021 it was a week after the Miami Bitcoin Conference, and this is when it was announced that Bitcoin was going to be legal tender in El Salvador. And I said the biggest highlight of the conference came from an impassioned speech by Jack Maulers. He presented news the president of El Salvador would introduce a bill to Congress making Bitcoin legal tender. It only took a few days for the bill to pass and become law, making it one of the most significant events in bitcoins history, and elevating the technology to a new level of adoption. What I find incredible is that this monumental geopolitical and economic event started truly from the ground up one man, Mike Peterson, turned a sleepy beach town into a Bitcoin economic zone, and this got the attention of President bukele, who became convinced of the merits of Bitcoin and saw an opportunity to bring prosperity to his country by adopting it as legal tender. So that was almost four years ago, and I'm just curious, did I get that right? Is that the story behind bitcoin Beach,

Mike Peterson:

yeah, the one caveat, I would say, is it definitely wasn't one man. I mean, we, I was just part of a team. Without the amazing team that we had, you know, would have just remained a crazy idea. Wouldn't have actually been, you know, actuated and put into action. And so I definitely don't claim credit for this, making it happen. It was the local team that did that.

Michael Ruiz:

And so then could we get into the story of how it all unfolded, Bitcoin Beach, how that idea came to be, and then, not only that, the development of the project itself?

Mike Peterson:

Yeah, so I'll take it all the way back. We came down to El Salvador on a surf trip, and I believe it's either 2004 2005 and fell in love with the country. Called my wife up and said, All right, we gotta come. You gotta come back here with me. She didn't come on that surf trip. I said, You gotta come back and let's buy a place. And so we came back a couple months later. Hey guys, just a brief, uh, interruption. We'll get back to the exciting show here. But I just want to really ask a favor that you guys could make sure that you're subscribed. You're watching this on YouTube. If you are listening to this on a podcast, please take the take a second and review this. You know. You don't even have to write a lengthy review or anything at all. Just click the number of stars that you want to give us. It really helps us in the algorithms to make sure people are finding out about what's happening here. All right, back to the show. Bought the house we've lived in for the last 20 years, and we decided that this would kind of be our second home in El Salvador. And so for the next 10 years, we would spend a couple months every year down here. We had a seasonal business in the US that gave us flexibility in the winter, and so this became kind of our winter home. And just continue to fall in love with the country, but also see the challenges that they were wrestling with. At that time, it had the highest murder rate in the world. You know, the poverty, the fact that people felt like they couldn't make it in El Salvador. And so the Salvadorans were like growing up in this beautiful place, but having to leave because they felt like they couldn't provide for their kids, or couldn't protect their kids. And so we decided that we would actually move down here full time. We were attending a church in San Salvador that there was a lot of other missionaries. There was an English speaking church, and so we started seeing people doing kind of amazing work in the country and but really having a rough time, their kids struggling with the violence, everything we thought, hey, we don't necessarily feel called to start up something, but let's come down and support all these different organizations that are operating here. And so we moved our family down. My kids, I think at that time, were six and eight, and decided to move down and make El Salvador home, and we would just go back to the US. We still had the seasonal business. We kind of scaled it back. And so we would go back to, you know, that was kind of how we paid the bills. We'd go back and run our food service business in the US every summer, and then come back down. And so that went on for a number of years. And we had local projects both then el Zante and Punta Mongo and and then that's kind of what the Bitcoin beach project was born out of one of the local projects, actually, both of them, because lot of people don't know this, we actually started the Bitcoin initiative in Punta Mongo, and just because it was so far from where we're living, we decided, okay, let's focus on El Zante first, and we'll do Punta Mongo second. I'm not sure if you've been to Punta Mongo, but it's on the other end in the country. You know what they're calling Surf City two, or where, you know, if it ever happens, where the Bitcoin city project would be. And so we had a number of things going local community. Because, I mean, I'd say probably a third of the kids were joining the gangs. I mean, there was kind of, like this pathway for a huge portion of them was okay, there's no jobs or opportunity here, so we'll join the local gang. And so we had this project with the youth really trying to keep them in school and keep them out of the gangs. And somebody heard about this. They knew that I was a bitcoiner Also, and so they said, hey, you know, maybe this donor that we know that likes to donate in Bitcoin would want to help you guys with this project? And so I was like, Yeah, I doubt it, but let's, let's go see that never hurts to listen to somebody. And went and had this, this meeting in the US, and I didn't, actually, wasn't meeting with a donor. They wanted to remain anonymous, and have remained anonymous, but kind of heard from the representative that what they had in mind, and they wanted to see a circular BITCOIN ECONOMY happen, where they wanted to support organizations that weren't just going to take their Bitcoin and convert it to fiat, but somebody that would truly catch the vision of starting a movement where people wouldn't have to convert, where they'd actually just live life in Bitcoin, and they felt like that more than the dollar value Was what was most important, was helping people get on a Bitcoin standard. And so, yeah, that was kind of the, the initial and then, you know, of course, we had no idea what we were doing. I thought, well, we'll go to this conference. It's in Uruguay, the Latin American Bitcoin Conference, and we'll, we'll talk to other people that are doing things like this. And we got down there, they're like, No, nobody's doing anything like this. You guys are idiots. It'll never work. And but we were committed. We're like, No, we're gonna prove everybody wrong. We're gonna make this work. And we actually met some great people at that conference that that, you know, even though I think they had their doubts, they're like, yeah, we'll get behind you guys in this effort. And so, yeah, kind of just grew from there. I don't know how much details you want to go into about that, but that's kind of the origin story.

Michael Ruiz:

Yeah. I mean, there's so many different ways we could take this, because I could imagine that in that journey, you've had all these different experiences, for instance, challenges that you've probably gone through and like even understanding the landscape a little bit. And when I think of it, for instance, with a challenge or understanding landscape, how important is it to be in a country where they do have friendly Bitcoin policies, when you want to start a like a circular economy

Mike Peterson:

It's it's helpful, for sure, I would say it's definitely not a requirement. We're actually supporting and working with a number of projects around the world, and a lot of them are in countries that are indifferent to, very hostile to, to Bitcoin. And so I wouldn't say that it's a requirement. And you know, actually, when we started in El Salvador, they were not a friendly jurisdiction. They weren't like a hostile jurisdiction. But most people in El Salvador had never even heard of Bitcoin, and so it wasn't something that I think was really on the radar. And we tried to make sure early on to engage the government, not because we wanted to partner with them, per se, but just because we wanted them to know, hey, this is what we're about. You don't want there to be rumors, you know, because Bitcoin, especially in those days, was associated with money laundering and drugs and, you know, all this stuff. So we wanted to let them know, Hey, this is what we're trying to do. This is our motivations. And, you know, as it turns out, it was the perfect place to launch the project, because the government's been amazing, and I think they really early on, caught the vision for what it could mean for El Salvador to adopt Bitcoin as legal tender, to be the first country in the world to kind of lead the charge. And, you know, we've seen it kind of play out, and the dividends it's paid as the country develops and sucks in. You know, both intellectual and monetary capital from around the world.

Michael Ruiz:

So your project, Bitcoin Beach, originally, I thought it was kind of just an organic notion that popped up and, you know, people just basically Bitcoiners getting together and say, Hey, why don't we just call this Bitcoin beach? But I've come to learn it's more of an organized project, is that? Right?

Mike Peterson:

Yeah. So it's it came out of an existing project that we already had, that was that was working in the community, and so and I, and I think we've seen, as we're working with other projects around the world, not you don't need to have that, but when you have that basis, you have that existing kind of trust that you've built in the community. You have those connections, it's much easier to start something than coming in new and I was like, Oh, these crazy people want us to use this money that we've heard has been used in a bunch of scams like it's much easier if the people already know you. They kind of know your heart and they know what you're about. And so we always tell people, Hey, if you have the the opportunity to, you know, take an existing project or partner with an existing project to launch something like this. It's definitely going to make something much easier. And yeah, that the the idea behind the name is, you know, I was my, my other business, we, we did a lot of stuff in the media. And so I was always thinking of things that would be, you know, kind of grab people's attention and be easy for people to latch on to. And so we're at the beach. It was Bitcoin. It was like, Bitcoin Beach,

Michael Ruiz:

awesome. And okay, so we're here now. It's 2025 we've had a few years of Bitcoin being legal tender here, and now we're at a place where, geopolitically, there's some new events that have occurred, primarily with the IMF coming into El Salvador, or already being here and renewing some agreements, and El Salvador taking a loan with them. Part of that loan, and part of the agreement was that parts of the Bitcoin law would have to be rescinded. So number one, why do you think that was the conditions? And number two, has that impacted the circular economy here, specifically Bitcoin beach.

Mike Peterson:

Yeah, I think all of us know that, that the IMF does not look fondly on on Bitcoin. It's not just in El Salvador. We saw that as conditions in Argentina also, I think they saw what was happening in El Salvador. And so when they did the loan in Argentina, they put that condition on I think that the IMF benefits from the existing power structure and financial system. And so I think for them, anything that challenges that is going to possibly make them no longer needed. And so I think that at a deeper level, I think you have a lot of that. I think, on the surface level, you just have people, you know, that are in the financial world. They're bankers, they're they tend to be more conservative. And so I think that anything that's different, or, you know, there's been a lot of blow ups in the Bitcoin space, and they not, may not be able to differentiate between a an FTX, and you know And so for them, they lump it all together. And so I think what Bitcoin is. that I don't think all of it is, you know, the sinister motives, but, but I do think that there are, you know, there they have vested interest, and can keep keeping the system that exists now to continue and to keep being able to Shell loans out to countries that have difficulty paying them back and have to meet their conditions. And so I do think there was a control element to it. As far as do I think it's really like impacted and had a negative impact, I would say, No, I think to the narrative to some extent, and that's that's been something that's kind of surprised me. The last few months, I've had to kind of step back and say, okay, my perspective is going to be different than other people's, because I've, I've heard from a lot of Bitcoiners, they're very disillusioned. You know, some that have left El Salvador, and other people that felt like they sold out and were very surprised. And for me, it wasn't a surprise El Salvador wasn't a precarious financial like position. They've had decades of presidents that have kind of run the country into the ground that have, you know, accumulated debt. And this was something that in naive and inherited. It wasn't something that he caused, but, you know, it was also complicated by covid and the shutdowns. There was definitely, you know, debt accumulated during that time. But even without that, they would have had to do some type of refinancing deal to make this work out long term. The other option was the default on the debt, and we've seen, historically countries the default that has all these knock on effects. And so I think would have been very unwise for El Salvador default. So we saw a couple years ago, they actually hired, you know, a former IMF official to come in to consult for them. So it's been obvious for the last few years that even though, while they were talking about, you know, basically, you know, giving the finger to the IMF at the same time, they're pragmatic and realistic that something had to be done. So I think they've been playing this they've been playing this kind of cat and mouse game. And when the IMF first came out with this, I mean, they were going to force El Salvador to take to roll everything back. And I think they thought they had the upper hand, that El Salvador would have to cave to whatever conditions they put on. And the President was very strategic. He just kind of kept putting them off, and he bought back debt to kind of buy him some time, he did a lot of things that allowed him to be able to negotiate on his terms, to wait for Bitcoin price to be back up. So he looked like a genius for having bought Bitcoin. Because instead of, you know, when the IMF first started pushing on this, that El Salvador was really in the red on their Bitcoin purchases. And so he, you know, waited till he was in the strong position. Also, things had shifted in the US with with Trump coming into, you know, in the power, I think that the IMF also knew, Okay, we don't know what Trump's position is going to be. He's probably a president who's not going to be looked that favorably on IMF as it is. And in the prior administration, in the in Trump's first term, bu Kelly and Trump had a very good relationship. So I think from the IMF position, they were like, Okay, we better get a deal done now. So I think at the time bukele Put this deal together, he kind of had the upper hand the things that he agreed to and didn't change anything on the ground, I mean, to not force businesses to accept Bitcoin. Businesses were never being forced to accept Bitcoin. The one, the one thing that I would have liked to have seen them not concede to was they conceded to not allowing tax payments to be made in Bitcoin, I think just from a functional point of view, as a business owner here, as somebody wanting to do, you know, projects in El Salvador, I want to do things on a Bitcoin standard. And so, you know, I want to be able to pay my taxes in Bitcoin also. And so I think that is just going to cause a little bit of a logistical hiccup. But as far as for most people and them being able to live on a Bitcoin standard and use it in their daily life, it's it's easier to use Bitcoin now than it was three months ago, six months ago. It just keeps getting better As far as Bitcoin use so, yeah, I don't think it's had really any practical impact,

Michael Ruiz:

yeah, and that's interesting that you brought up, also the psychological impact, though, that it's had on people here. Because, from my vantage point, I think that what El Salvador did with the Bitcoin law, it created a signal, a beacon, to Bitcoiners around the world that El Salvador was going in a different direction, one that kind of transcended the old monetary order and the Fiat regime, and that they were embracing a new way of approaching governance and basically rebuilding the base layer of their society on sound principles. And so I think that's what a lot of Bitcoiners gravitated towards. And I'm not somebody who believes in a top down approach to things, but, you know, having the government signal that they are not only not just hostile, but they're actually embracing a Bitcoin Center, I think, was huge. And the IMF coming into the picture, I think just distorted that signal. And I think that was mainly the damage that has been done, because, like, practically everything's still the same. And I think the biggest aspect of it all is the fact that it capital gains remains, like there are no capital gains on your Bitcoin, and as Bitcoin appreciates, that would be detrimental. To be using it as a currency. I think we're seeing that in the US and other Western countries that do tax those capital gains. So as long as that remains intact, I think that nothing really practical has changed, except for the tax thing, where you can't pay your taxes in Bitcoin. That's more of a practical function,

Mike Peterson:

yeah. And in reality, that, from my experience, had not been rolled out. I mean, I have not been able to pay my taxes here. Yeah, so it wasn't something that they had already implemented, and I see it as something they'll probably change back down the road. So I think you saw a lot of Bitcoiners coming out, posting things on Twitter, you know, saying, Hey, Luke Kelly, why did you cave on this? Why did you give in? You sold out, and then you saw the President coming back and saying, Hey, nothing's changed. We're still buying Bitcoin. And and they're like, Well, you can't buy Bitcoin because the IMF agreement says you can't buy bitcoin. And he's saying, No, we're still buying Bitcoin. We're still accumulating. And so people were trying, you know, people were upset about that. They're like, Well, somebody's lying. It's like, no, that's not how the world works, like you look at IMF agreements. I was talking with a with a friend the other day, me and her were just kind of laughing, because you look at the other IMF agreements like they put all these conditions down, and then the countries ignore most of them. And the IMF comes in, and they have a grading that, you know, when they when they do their evaluations, they kind of grade where they are in compliance and they have to hit a certain level. Usually they waive those requirements, and they keep funding these the governments, you know, whether it's Argentina or, you know, somewhere in Africa. And so bukele is coming out saying, We're going to keep buying and people, well, how can you do it? Well, because he knows that he can push the line, but he can't. He can't come out and say, Yeah, well, we don't really plan on complying with this, because he's he's got to allow the IMF So he's trying to be like, hey, look guys, this is all going to to save face too. work out. We put this agreement together. We allowed them to save face. It allows us to keep going business as usual, but we got this financing come in, we're going to be able to get our bond ratings up. The economy is powering ahead, like everything's blue sky ahead of us, but some of the Bitcoiners are so, like, tripped up and set on this. Well, what is it? Can we buy, or can't buyers? Like, life's not clean like that. It's always a little messy, especially, and they're going to push the limits,

Michael Ruiz:

yeah, especially when it comes to politics too, right? That is a game where you have to have tact and strategy. And I think Bitcoin,

Mike Peterson:

you can't always say what you're going to do. You have to allow that gray area there so that the IMF can save face with their people. And, you know, you that's just the that's just the reality. So when people are kind trying to, like, push Well, well, we want to know who's lying, who's right. It's like, yeah, you're looking at it totally wrong.

Michael Ruiz:

Yeah, yeah. Bitcoiners are more black and white, and where politics is operates in a whole gray area, from my perspective. Yeah. So then, what does this all mean for El Salvador, for Bitcoin beach? How do you see the future playing out here? What's your take on that, just based off what you've been seeing, is, is this still Bitcoin country? Are people still coming here? Are still people investing here? And what does the future look like here?

Mike Peterson:

Yeah, it's 100% still, still Bitcoin country. And people ask, like, well, Bitcoin is not still. It's not legal tender now. It's like, legal tender is one of those terms that nobody really knows what it means to begin with. There's lots of states in the US who have passed laws that have named gold and silver legal tender, but they don't force every business in those states to accept gold and silver. So in my mind, that's similar thing here. Bitcoin is still legal tender. This is still Bitcoin. Country. You still have the most friendly administration of anywhere in the world, as far as pushing Bitcoin. I mean, they're getting ready to roll out Bitcoin education in the entire public school system, like starting, I believe, in second grade, like doing it every year, they have a different program doing financial, you know, education, but that's going to include Bitcoin and be focused on Bitcoin. And so where else in the world do you have anything like that? You have, you know, tether, which is, you know, very Bitcoin friendly company. Obviously, it's not pure Bitcoin, but it's, it's company, I believe that's that's run by Bitcoiners, that wants to see the Freedom The Bitcoin comes like, proliferate around the world. And so you have them making El Salvador their headquarters. Their net revenue in a year is twice, I think, El Salvador's total tax base. So to have a company that size that's making El Salvador home, you know, all these we did a podcast with, with Wiz from mempool. They're getting ready to move from Japan here you have a lot of Bitcoin companies that are flooding in, but not just Bitcoin companies that are like directly in the Bitcoin space, but Bitcoiners that own all kinds of different companies that are moving to El Salvador and kind of seeing this as their their freedom play, and they have ton of people in the decentralized. Health space that maybe that's more of their focus than Bitcoin. But they're, you know, they're very Bitcoin friendly and connected to the Bitcoin space. You have all these different communities, I think, converging on El Salvador and, yeah, I mean, just look around. They're building everywhere. Real estate prices kind of continue to go up. Opportunities continue to you see businesses sprouting everywhere, not not just foreigners, like the locals, are benefiting from this. They're starting the businesses you're seeing Salvadorans come back from the US. I mean to me, I get kind of surprised sometimes when I see things on Twitter, because I'm like, look around like things are like, booming here.

Michael Ruiz:

El Salvador is still a developing country, though, from my perspective, and that's great for entrepreneurs. It means there's a lot of opportunity. What do you think El Salvador needs in terms of industry, in terms of businesses, in terms of services? You've been here 15 years, 20 years, many years? What would you say needs to evolve here in order for it to move up in status, and especially when it comes to lifestyle?

Mike Peterson:

Yeah, I think mostly it's going to take time. I mean, that's the reality, I think, for me, having been here for 20 years, just seeing in the last five years, how crazy the shift is and how, you know, if people come now, they feel like it's kind of rustic here, man, you should have seen it 10 years ago, like it's luxury now compared to then. So I think even another five years from now, people are going to be shocked that at you know how far along that it's come. But the great thing is, there's so much opportunity here, because the reality is, the standards were kind of low in the past. And so whether it was like construction or the quality of, you know, appliances, or anything that you had the business services, there was a lot of stuff that was lacking. Well, now you have people coming in with money. And so there's all this opportunity, whether you have, you know, company that makes, if you could, if you come in and want to make windows here like there's a huge need for companies that make good windows, because most of the windows and country are still single pane, even in new construction and so and the double pane windows are crazy expensive. So if a company came in and was a good window company, I mean paint painting companies, the historically painting in El Salvador, they didn't tape anything. They didn't put tarps down. They just, you know, paint was to protect stuff, and if you got some on the ground or wherever, no big deal. Obviously, as people come in, they have different standards of aesthetics, and they want sharp lines and clean paint. Like, if you're a painting company that knows how to come in and do that, you would clean up here and make a fortune. So I feel like there's all these different kind of niche opportunities. You don't have to be tech or in the Bitcoin space, per se. I just think anybody who can provide great service.

Michael Ruiz:

Yeah, and what's been your driving force between your missions here to El Salvador and building out Bitcoin beach and the project there, and the circular economy, what would you say is driving you to do all of that?

Mike Peterson:

I think growing up as a Christian and that being kind of the driver of my life and decisions, I feel like we're here to serve others, and that it's actually through serving others that you actually find personal happiness. I think that's why we find kind of the happiest people in the world are those that are serving others. And so I think what better place to be able to serve? And there's so much opportunity in El Salvador, and the people here are just so warm and inviting, and I just see so much hope here. And so I think for me, it just seemed like the natural place to be able to come in and participate and feel like I belong, but that also I can

Michael Ruiz:

And in terms of like stories where you've had an impact, or where you've seen just a positive force of Bitcoin or your efforts, do you have any stories like that that you could share where you've seen just some type of transformation occur?

Mike Peterson:

Yeah, I don't. I don't want to take individuals by name or anything, just for their own privacy, and I because I haven't asked them beforehand, but, but, you know, a lot of their stories have already been told by people that have come down. But I would say just kind of on a broader level. I'll take just el Zante, like when we started, the vast majority of the kids never went to high school because there wasn't a local high school and it was dangerous for them to go to the one in the local community. Now, I would say probably 80 to 90% of the kids of that age finish high school. Previously, there was no nobody from the community that had gone to university. Now there's the dozens that have graduated or there that are in university right now, the level of businesses that we see growing started by young entrepreneurs, even the folks that offer English classes in el zonte now like they've turned it into a business. So seeing all these young people who for them the dream used to be. To try to get illegally to the US and work in some dead end job in the US. Now they're dreaming about building, you know, something in El zonte, or not just El zonte, this is happening all over the country. You're seeing a huge decrease in the people that leave to go to the US. They're seeing promise to be able to build in El Salvador. You're seeing even them telling their friends that are in the US. Hey, you should come back. There's more opportunity. Here than probably your experience in El Salvador, especially if you speak English now and so, yeah, you just see this total transformation in the mindset. It used to be people felt like life was just gonna keep getting worse. Now they're just full of hope.

Michael Ruiz:

Yeah, that's the what I felt when I first originally got here, that hope and the optimism, and it was mainly to do with the transformation that the country as a whole was going through, and being here now, almost, I would say, a year and a half, on and off right living here eight months. And then before that, I traveled about six months every month here. I couldn't imagine what life was like with the gangs, like I didn't experience it at all, and it seems like it's been totally obliterated. I've never felt unsafe here, never even interacted with a gang member or anything like that. But you've been here 20 years. What's, what's that transformation been like here?

Mike Peterson:

It's hard to describe the people who didn't live through it, because it really was this, like, oppressive thing that hung over the country, especially, there would be times where things would, like, get a little better, and there'd be a little hope. But then the times when, the murders would skyrocket. I mean, people wouldn't go out on the streets. You'd go out at night, and it would be like a ghost town. I mean, everybody lived, their homes were like bunkers, you know, they were, you know, sending their kids to the US if they could, or out of town to, you know, neighboring towns that, that, you know, had less gangs controlling them. You know, people were wouldn't, wouldn't send their kids to school, because that was a place where, you know, the gangs would do a lot of recruiting. And so it really felt like, like life was ending for the people here. I mean, I remember we had a one really bad spell where we had, you know, three of our neighbors were killed within a three week period, including the guy lived right in front of us. I've heard it. He was shot 40 times. It was this crazy. And it's, in fact, it's, it's now where they just recently put the Satoshi monument statue in El zonte. I don't know if you've seen that one that they have a similar one in Lugano. They just put it by the skate park there, but that's where the guy lived at that time. That was a little shack then at that time. And so it was, it was this sense of like, Yeah, nobody wanted to be in El Salvador. Nobody wanted to stay and nobody thought that it could ever change. So for me to see this shift to people being full of hope, to El Salvador having a much lower murder rate than the US has the being, you know, the thought of having the, I can't remember if it was the president or some head guys from Costa Rica recently was was here, like touring things and trying to get info from the government, that the thought of Costa Rica looking to El Salvador For advice was would have been laughable five years ago. So just seeing that kind of shift, and then the the other thing that I think a lot of people don't kind of talk about, and they don't realize, is how many young lives have been saved by the crackdown. And you have a lot of people focusing on, hey, there's a chance that the people that are innocent are in the jails right now. And that itself is a very complicated thing. From having been in El salva all these years, you realize how ingrained the gangs were in And so even if you had all the facts, if you had a full on communities. trial, if you had, you know, each individual person had a defense lawyer and a prosecutor, it would be very hard to untangle who should be in jail and who shouldn't, because a lot of these people were participating in things, but they were forced to participate, but then at a certain point, they were the ones forcing others to participate. You know, there was people that did favors just out of fear of their lives or to fear for their kids. And so to even know who the victims versus the perpetrators were is almost impossible to decipher, and so I don't think it would have been possible for El Salvador to stop this kind of like continuing, like pipeline of of youth into the gangs without doing this major, major crackdown. And with that, yes, there's going to be collateral damage, but the other option was to allow this to just kind of persist for years. And so you look at, I estimate there was probably about 25,000 youth a year. There. We're joining the gangs. So you look at that now, and that's now, it's probably in the hundreds. I mean, we're not even talking 1000s. There's probably, there's virtually nobody joining the gangs now, because nobody wants to be part of that. They've made it so that the costs are way too high. So you look in the past five years, you're talking to over 100,000 youth who have been kept out of that lifestyle. And so when we're weighing the cost of these things, we have to weigh what do those 100,000 lives of young people that have been saved, plus the millions of Salvadorans who now have freedom go apologize, sorry. I'm a little emotional about this, but the millions of Salvadorans whose lives are free now, the economic prosperity has come and yes, of course, any person who's wrongly imprisoned is a tragedy, and I'm not making excuses of that and saying that we shouldn't do everything that we can to stop that, but you've got to weigh these two things, and that's one thing I never hear anybody talk about the 100 plus 1000 kids whose lives have been saved by this. Sorry.

Michael Ruiz:

No, no worries. I really appreciate the emotion behind what you're saying, because we hear about this in the news and then headlines and then Twitter posts and so forth. But like to have someone here that actually was with these children and saw what they went through and lived through the violence and the murders here, and to see the transformation that has occurred, I think really it makes you understand it at a much deeper level. And I appreciate you for, you know, just going there and sharing that with me, and in terms of talking about the children you know now we have a country here that's safe, and I think that's a huge part of rebuilding. What do you think else needs to happen? Is education a big part that needs to occur here in order to give these kids growing up now a chance at prospering with this new foundation that's been laid?

Mike Peterson:

100%. the fact was, before it was hard to encourage people to stay in school, because the response is, for what like, there's no jobs here. There's no opportunity where now there's tons of opportunity. You have companies coming in right now, really, there's a lack of talents, and especially in the specific fields. And so you have this big demand and this need for educated workers in these different fields. And so now there's a driving force and a reason to motivate people to go on and get education. The proliferation of English classes and people now that we see that are learning English, that's opening job opportunities for them, not just here in El Salvador, but as global workers. And the reality is, though, like this stuff doesn't happen overnight, like these things take years, if not decades, to change, and so the education system here was pretty abysmal. If you go back five years, they're making a bunch of changes. They're trying to renovate the schools, bring them up to better standards, bring in better teachers. But it's very hard to take something that had been in neglect for so many years, and you can't just overnight turn it into, you know, a model school system. So I'm actually shocked at how quickly they have been able to change things and the progress that they've been able to make. I love the things like the Bitcoin initiative of putting this education in all of the school systems here. And I think 10 years from now, you know, you're going to look at El Salvador as a place that's doing education, right? They're not going, they're definitely not going down the woke path of trying to, you know, victimize everybody and, you know, and coddle people. They're saying, hey, what do we need to do to actually get educated workers who can kind of lead the country forward

Michael Ruiz:

in terms of Bitcoin beach and your mission is education a part of it as well? And what impact has it had on the kids I know you guys were once partnered with Hope House. Is that still the case? And what has the impact been there in El Zonte?

Mike Peterson:

Yeah, so Hope House and Bitcoin Beach, like, kind of came up simultaneously, and then over the last couple of years, we've kind of split off those those efforts still great working relationship. But Jorge was very early, very big part of Bitcoin beach, and really, this couldn't have happened without him. He wanted to really just focus more on El zonte and the local community projects, and make sure that those didn't get kind of forgotten as we expanded and did more stuff. And so it was kind of great. We kind of split the team, and they're focusing on the local initiatives, doing English classes, a lot of stuff, especially with younger kids. And then we've continued with more of the Bitcoin initiatives. You know, a lot of them still with with social components to them, but not just focused in El Zante, focus really throughout El Salvador. And then throughout the world. We're now working with probably 60 or 70 different I've lost count. There's so many that keep popping up, but different circular Bitcoin economies around the world. And so I think, and I love how it's happened, because I think it's better than having organizations get big and kind of cumbersome and bureaucratic. It's better to have a decentralized kind of way that things happen, and have certain people take on certain initiatives, and other people take on others. And so we've done a number of education things. We worked with the Department of Education to develop the curriculum that they're doing in the schools. Obviously, me, Premier Bitcoin was a big part of that. And me, Premier Bitcoin, that's all they're focused on, is education. And so we think that's great. It's great to have, you know, places that are just focused on that. So I think that the key thing is to realize sometimes people like to think like, oh, well, that's competing with that. It's like, no, these are all synergistic, like having the more, the more the better of these things that we can have, because there's no lack of opportunity and need out there, but there is a lack of people that are equipped to go in and meet that need.

Michael Ruiz:

Yeah, and, you know, getting back to the circular economy, you said you're working like 60 or 70, and you know, you spurred up your own Bitcoin circular economy here. And then there's Bitcoin circular economy at Berlin, and I'm sure there are other ones popping up all over the place here in El Salvador. Do you have any tips for people that want to start, you know, creating their own Bitcoin circular economy in their neighborhood, in their community?

Mike Peterson:

I mean, one is to just start small and, and what I always say is, start small, and then whatever you think you want to do, shrink it down, like, 10% of that size, because people want to say, like, I want to reach my city, like, like, no start in one neighborhood, because the network effect that you need with Bitcoin transactions, you need to have a hub of places where people can spend Bitcoin, get paid in Bitcoin, where people are transacting in Bitcoin. And then it's much easier if you have just one neighborhood. Then over time, it'll expand out to the rest of the town. But if you try to do the shotgun approach and get a whole city, it's never going to work, because somebody's going to use Bitcoin one time, and then they never had another opportunity to use it. And so I always tell people start small and then try to base it around some type of community project or need, and make sure that you have real ties and connection in the community, because it's going to require a lot of hand holding. A lot of people are going to be confused. They'll think maybe it's a scam. They'll think maybe you have ulterior motives, and so you need to spend a lot of time with people and really grow that connection and that that trust basis. That's why it's much easier if there's already an existing program that you kind of partner with,

Michael Ruiz:

and you have a podcast and whole media studio over there at Bitcoin beach. And over the course of us being here in El Salvador, we've had our podcast and our media projects, and it made me realize the power of media. Do you think that's an important component as well of building a Bitcoin circular economy, that media aspect?

Mike Peterson:

Yeah. I mean, the reality is, Bitcoin beach never would have succeeded without the the media component. And that was, that was something that I learned from my, my prior business, that I had in the US, of just how media can drive things and so from from the early days, not not that you're doing things to to take a picture of it or to have videos of it, that that's obviously not important, but in order to have the wider community supporting something, they have to know about it, yeah. And in order for them to know about it, they have to hear about it several times, like, just because they hear about something, once you think, like, oh, but they heard a podcast. I talk them. Yeah, they've heard like 50 podcasts. But if they hear, you know, if you hear your story five times, then they'll, they'll finally start to be like, Oh, wow, I should check that out. And so we knew early on that having the media on our side would bring supporters in. It would bring it would actually drive people to El zonte, because it wouldn't the project of Bitcoin beach wasn't going to work unless we drew Bitcoiners from around the world to come in, spend their Bitcoin in El Zante, buy properties there, invest there, make that home like in order to make it sustainable, we needed Bitcoin continually coming in from the outside. And so we knew to do that, that you need to harness media. And so you learn there's, there's certain things, I mean, like the name of Bitcoin beach, you got to have something that's easy, that's kind of catchy, and then have a story that's different. And so we knew that this was a story that was very different. And that's, you know, that's why, you know. 60 Minutes didn't come down because, you know, my looks, or something like, obviously, everybody knows that. You know, they came down because this was this crazy story. It wasn't had nothing to do with me. It was like, wow, there's this, this community in El Salvador, of all places, that's like living on a Bitcoin standard. This is crazy. And so I think that it's very helpful when you have a unique story, to use the media to get and then those things kind of build on each other once, once one outlet picks it up, then the others do. They kind of, they all follow each other. I mean, it's one of those things. Well, if, if they think it's a story, then it must be a story. You know, it's like this self validating network, absolutely. So I think it's, it's hugely important. And to me, it's work. I don't, I don't like seeing myself on camera. I don't like it's not something I really enjoy, but I see the power and the benefit of it. And so, yeah, I always encourage people, whether you like it or not, like you need to get the story out there. If nobody knows about your project, and nobody's gonna come in and spend Bitcoin there or support or get involved, it's going to be very hard for it to succeed.

Michael Ruiz:

Yeah, I could imagine it just stalling out, you know, you get some vendors on board, and then,

Mike Peterson:

yeah, but if nobody's spending Bitcoin, they're not going to want, I mean, and, and even when the media comes in that validates it to the vendors, they're like, Oh, this is not a scam. This must be real. If you have Bloomberg, here are these. You know, they're like, to them, it makes it more real. And so, yeah, I think it's important. It's work. That's the reality. It's work. The podcast side, I love the podcast because, you know, we're not trying to monetize it. We're doing just to get a story out. And so I love that to me, that's not work, but doing the media aspect is definitely work.

Michael Ruiz:

Yeah, someone new to the camera, I understand totally where you're coming from. Now. What's the roadmap for Bitcoin beach from from here on out, any plans?

Mike Peterson:

We're really just trying to see this continue to grow worldwide, and so we don't want to lose momentum with the local projects. So we want to make sure that we, you know, remain committed to that, that we have the local team that's doing that, but we're also spending a lot of our time working with, like I said, there's dozens of, you know, it's probably it could be close to 100 by now. I haven't counted recently, but of these projects all over the world. So we recently did a Bitcoin Circular Economy summit as part of the the plan B conference that was here in January. We had people come in early from that. We had people from all over the world that came in. I think we had like 15 different circular economies that came in for that. And we'd spent a whole week doing workshops and sharing ideas. And it's not just us telling them what to do. It's us learning from what they're doing. And wow, we never would have thought about that. That's a great idea. And so to see that kind of shared knowledge in the community, and to see the comradery that comes with that, so that's what we're spending a lot of our time now, is trying to start up these and help sustain and take the next level these projects that can have the same impact on their countries that Bitcoin beach had on El Salvador. Obviously, not every country is going to have a, you know, a leader that's forward thinking enough that they're going to jump to, you know, adopting Bitcoin, but we help them see that in different ways. They can help push their their countries forward, even if it's not on the government level, but just on the, you know, the local adoption level.

Michael Ruiz:

Yeah, well, I got a question for you that's a little bit out of left field, but yeah, what's, what's the end goal? What's the big picture vision that you have for El Salvador. What would you like to see transpire? Is it everyone using Bitcoin and completely discarding the dollar? What? What's the final destination for your mission?

Mike Peterson:

Final Destination is that Salvadorans don't feel like they have to leave El Salvador, that they feel like they can be successful here, that we see it become kind of a beacon of hope for the neighbors. You see the neighboring countries kind of pick up on what's happening here and try to replicate it. As far as Bitcoin adoption, I think that that's just the direction it's going to go. I don't think it matters whether we want that happen or not. I think that's the direction the world is moving in. And you know, it's not going to happen overnight, is maybe it may be a decade long thing to see the Bitcoin use here kind of dwarf the dollar usage. I mean, the dollar has been around for so long. It's it has the network effects. It's so untangled everything. So I'm not naive enough to think that it's going to happen overnight, but I think 10 years from now, people will be like, Oh, yeah. Most people prefer to use Bitcoin because it just works better. So that's not the end goal. The Bitcoin is the tool. The end goal is seeing families thrive,

Michael Ruiz:

and Bitcoin has been a major part of that. Obviously. Do you think savings culture is now starting to pick up over here? Because from my perspective, you know, this country's lived through a lot of hardship, from Civil War to gang violence, and it was pretty much on survival mode. And when you're on that mode, you're just thinking about the next day, and you're not thinking about saving for the future. And so Bitcoin comes around, and it does just by, I don't know of a better word than osmosis, right? Just by interacting with it, it transforms your mindset to one of savings and prudence and so forth. Do you see that catching hold in certain circumstances here?

Mike Peterson:

Yeah, it's, it's hard, it's hard to describe to somebody without them seeing the transformation that happens in a young person when they start getting paid in Bitcoin and they start for the first time in their life, questioning, should I spend it now versus save it for the future? Because El Salvador had no savings culture when we started. I mean, the savings rate was probably one of the lowest in the world, and there really was this sense of, like, who knows what's going to happen tomorrow? So might as well live for the day. You know, you also have a lot of people that were living off remittances sent back from the US. And so the remittance culture is is kind of like a welfare to some extent, because they're not working for it. It's coming from the US. I think a lot of people here don't realize how hard their family members were having to work for that money in the US. I think there was this kind of frame of mind of like, Oh, you just make tons of money in the US, and they're rich now, and they're sending us, you know, a little pittance down here. And so, you know, we'll take it and go out and buy Pollo campero or McDonald's with it, rather than saving it. And so I think you had kind of a welfare mentality combined with a hey, who knows, we're gonna be alive tomorrow. So like, let's, you know, this kind of survival mode. And now, with the security aspect changing, people are thinking longer term. With Bitcoin coming in, they're thinking about the value of money for the first time, they're realizing that there's an opportunity cost of spending today versus sending, you know, saving for the future. But also, you see, they actually believe there's a future here in El Salvador. So they want to save so they can buy property, so they can invest in a business. You just look around. I mean, all the businesses are making improvements to their infrastructure, you know, bringing in new equipment, signage, like people believe there's a future here. And so that that may not be like bank savings, like we think about traditionally, but investing in a business is one of the best savings modes that you can have. And so, yeah, we're definitely seeing that shift.

Michael Ruiz:

Mike, is there anything else you want to cover here in this conversation? Anything else you want to say?

Mike Peterson:

I mean, just the people should come to El Salvador and check things out. It's, I'm curious what's what's been your perspective on on coming down here and operating a business? What do you see is as the biggest challenges that El Salvador still has in in kind of attracting entrepreneurs and people from around the world and and you see that causing any rub with with locals feeling like, hey, now El Salvador is successful. So why are foreigners coming in and taking our jobs? Which, which? They're not. They're usually creating jobs, and people don't, you know, but, but that's natural. I think sometimes we see the same thing in the US, where people feel like, oh, no, this pie is only so big. If somebody else comes in, they're gonna get part of my piece, rather than seeing like, No, we're making the whole pie bigger. So I'm just curious as to what, what you're seeing as an entrepreneur. Yeah,

Michael Ruiz:

I think El Salvador is a place with just plenty of opportunity and a forward thinking leader that is clearing the path as best as he can in order to build up this country. And so we've seen now companies move into space like tether, and we see people from all around the world moving to El Salvador with their hopes and dreams, and even, you know, the billionaires, I was talking to someone the other day, and he said, you know, maybe in the past, one or two billionaires came into the country a year, yeah. And we just had a meeting over here where it was 50 plus, yeah.

Mike Peterson:

I mean, I think I've met or had lunch or dinner with like, five or six billionaires, like, in the last couple I've never met a billionaire in my life, and I've probably never been in the same room with a billionaire. And never would have thought El Salvador would be the place where you would like come in contact with these people.

Michael Ruiz:

Yeah. And so in that regard, there's a lot of energy moving here. However, after a year and a half of being here, it comes with its challenges. As I mentioned, it's been 40-50, years that El Salvador has been a dark it isn't developed in ways where a person who is used to creature comforts would experience that through. Out throughout this the country, right? I mean, you have your pockets where to affluent and stuff like that. And if you and if you can live in that area and build your life around there, you could perhaps find the amenities and the comforts that would make you feel comfortable. The way I describe it is, you know, if you're coming here to build, it's the right time, and if you're coming here for comfort, and you still got a decade or two out before it gets to that level. And so it really depends on the mindset, but if you come here with the entrepreneurial mindset, there's a lot of growth to be had, and I think that it's going to be discovered, just like any gold rush. And right now it's those early days where you can really take advantage of it. I mean, just in the little time that I've been here, we got here and hit the ground running, and we were made able to make a big impact really fast, and create a lot of media, publicity and stuff like that. And that's because in the way we were doing it, there wasn't a lot of people doing it that way. And so it's easy to carve out your niche here really quick. Like you said, somebody coming here and wanting to do quality construction, they're going to stand out. Somebody coming here and wanting to do quality dental care, they're going to stand out. And I think over time, what you're going to see happen is that the standards are just gonna raise, just through free market competition. But I think it's important also that there's a boon there for El Salvadorians to also rise, as the country does, and I haven't felt any animosity. It's only been friendliness towards me, but at the same time, I'm not competing with them at a level where I'm building a business that actually, you know, participates in the local economy at a very observable way. You know, I'm curious you though, has there been criticisms for your project and Bitcoin? I know here the sentiment is mixed between Bitcoin and so wondering what kind of blowback, if any, you've gotten?

Mike Peterson:

I mean, there's, there's, you know, always the criticism that you know, Bitcoin is pushing gentrification. You have people coming in with money, and it's pushing people out. I think anytime you have like development things come in, there's going to be losers and winners in that overall, the society wins, but you're going to have some people that are negatively impacted. And so I think it's important, as this development happens, that the government protects people that may be on the losing end of that, and that they need to make sure they keep the population on board that they're excited about what's happening here. And I think Bukele does a great job with that. You know, I watch him kind of zigzag. He'll, I think he's a very free market, but then, you know, sometimes, like, hey, the free market adaptation is going to be painful, and sometimes we need to make sure that people know that we care about them. So he'll make some populous moves, like paying for people's electric water bills for a month, which I don't think that's a bad thing, but it's not necessarily like the thing that I think is going to help the country long term, but it helps keep the people on board and them feeling like they're participating in the growing wealth and opportunity here. And so I think he's, he's very in tune with that aspect of the importance of keeping the people on board. And overall, I'd say, like I haven't seen that. I think, think that people are very welcoming of foreigners. They're very glad that people actually want to be in El Salvador. Overall, that that level is this very hospitable. I just My concern is longer term, as I think El Salvador is going to continue to suck in people from around the world. So it's very important that we see the Salvadorans succeeding. And really, they have the competitive advantage. They have home field advantage. They have, you know, a lot of advantages. The foreigners, a lot of times, have different different mindset, or can kind of see different product or different opportunities there. And so I think the two can kind of push each other to both bring their the game up to a different level. And so that's kind of what I hope to see. The other thing that I've that I've seen, and I'm trying to decipher, like, where this comes from, because I was talking to somebody yesterday, and we're like, it almost feels like there's bear market vibes in the Bitcoin community in El Salvador right now. And I don't know, you know, obviously price has been kind of stagnant, but it's still, you know, we're far from a bear market. But you know, part of it is probably, you know, the people a little bit disillusioned with the IMF thing. But the thing that's been the most disheartening for me is it feels like there's, like, some different camps now, in El Salvador, in the Bitcoin community, and so a lot of times I don't even know about. These divisions, and they put me in one camp or another that I don't even know about, because I was talking to somebody, so I must be against them or something I'm like, but I think that's unfortunate, because there's so much opportunity here, and somehow I get drug into a lot of these things. And the reality is they never have anything to do with Bitcoin. They're almost always like personal beefs. And Bitcoiners are very ideological, and they see everything black and white, and not just when comes to Bitcoin, when it comes to their personal stuff, too. And so that's one thing I hope that people can kind of take a step back and realize like, hey, the other Bitcoiners here, they're not competitors, they're not enemies, they're not we don't have to be best friends, but we all have the same goal. We want to see El Salvador succeed. And so the kind of tribalism and the we're talking within the Bitcoin camp, I mean, these are all people that would we're not talking about people not wanting scammers and stuff coming. We're talking about core Bitcoiners that don't like each other and are fighting each other about stuff that has nothing to do with Bitcoin, so that I would like to see stop, so we could just have everybody focus on the end goal.

Michael Ruiz:

Yeah, I think that's just an aspect of human nature. And the fact that the Bitcoin community here is pretty small, and everyone knows each other, you know, to a good degree. You know, you go to say meetups, and you see them in Arizona, El Salvador in general is not a big country, so I think it's just one of those things as the Bitcoin community here grows that will start to dissipate and won't be as loud, because everyone will find their own place within the whole Bitcoin ecosystem itself. But you opened up a can of worms here. I'm curious here, what else are you concerned about as El Salvador evolves? Because, the way I see it right now, it's kind of a it's almost like a blank canvas. You look at the beach and the coastline, even that is really underdeveloped. And I know some people are worried about, you know, the coastline over developing with huge condos and high rises and stuff like that, as the next 2030, years progress. Do you see that happening? Do you have any reservations about that, or is this just the inevitable path of development for for countries that want prosperity?

Mike Peterson:

Yeah, that brings up an issue that is close to my heart, because I really wrestle through this, because what we're seeing in El zonte Right now, in fact, around my house where I've lived for the past 20 years, I recently moved, and now it's the Bitcoin beach offices. But we literally have towers circling, like on 270 degrees. There's four towers, you know, seven, eight, I think seven or eight stories that are built around so it's, it's totally changed the feeling and the sentiment of it, it, I feel like it's, it's lost some of its character, specifically in that one area as Al sante as a whole, I still feel like still has its character. So I'm, I'm very much pro development. I think it's important that we support development, because that brings in opportunities for the locals. Sometimes you have it's some of the people who speak out the most against development are the foreigners who've been living there for a while. Because it's like, well, I found my slice of paradise, so want to shut the door and nobody else come in, and it's like, yeah, that's because you earned your money in the US, and you can live here relatively cheap, and you're not trying to make a living here. And you know, the locals are living in poverty, and so it works for you, but it's not working for the locals. So I think that's what's most important, is we find something that works for the locals. I would like to see them have some stipulations to make sure that we don't, you know, totally change the character of the community, because I feel like El Zante, in the long term, has more development potential if it retains its character, if it loses its character and just becomes a bunch of towers, nobody's going to want to go there. It loses its specialness. Right now, the hotels can charge a premium, the restaurants can charge a premium, because everybody wants to be there, but if they destroy that, it's not going to benefit anybody. So I would love to see there to be continued development and investment, but for them to figure out a way to do it in a way that doesn't wreck the beauty of the place?

Michael Ruiz:

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I don't know about your viewpoints, but I'm more libertarian leaning, and being here has challenged me in a number of ways. Number one, well, actually, let's get to, are you more of a libertarian leader?

Mike Peterson:

I'm definitely more of a libertarian and to kind of maybe jump ahead of you a little bit, but like, yeah, you people should be able to do what they want with their land. But then when you see somebody puts a tower next to your place and you can't even see the sun anymore, that's affecting your property too. So it does. It makes you kind of question, okay, where is that give and take, and take, and what role is there for government?

Michael Ruiz:

Yeah, and that's exactly what I was getting at. Not only that, but you see bukele, the Strong man, strong leader, who's basically imposing power in a way that, like, uplifts his people. And so that makes you question, okay, is there a place for state power on that level? And then you live here. And you just kind of go through the challenges of living in a country that's on the rise, and you realize, oh, man, okay, I see why they might have zoning laws where you can't throw a concert in a residential neighborhood, which you get over here, yeah, and stuff like that. So I've now become, my views have become a little bit more open to the idea of, you know, some sort of regulation in order to maintain a certain vision that you have for the, you know, the community in general. And so sounds like you've gotten there a little bit too.

Mike Peterson:

Yeah, it's, it's funny, I was talking to a developer that specialized. They specialize in communities of libertarians. They have stuff in Belize and Honduras and Nicaragua and and he said, like everybody comes in, they don't want any Homeowners Association. They don't want any restrictions of what they can do on their land until they live in a community where there's no restrictions on what people can do. They're like, Hey, we should have some sound ordinances that you can't have noise after this. Or, you know, well, he shouldn't be able to open a business right next to my, you know, my house where he's got delivery trucks at 6am you know, be be backing in to deliver, you know, so it is. It's challenging, because I'm very much wired as libertarian, and I like recoil when somebody says I need even to get a permit for something and so, but then you see, like, okay, there is a reason, and I feel like it's overdone in the US and a lot of places it it kind of takes on a life of its own, but there is some role for those things. Even here, there's properties where, you know, just figuring out, Hey, how can we pave this, this road? And you realize it's very hard to get neighbors to come together. And so what usually happens is a few people pay for it, and the rest people free ride on it and benefit from it. And so for the state to come in and do something and require everybody to pay taxes for it, and everybody pay I'm not saying I'm a proponent of that, but you kind of see both sides to it.

Michael Ruiz:

Yeah, the coordination mechanism is hard to solve, and it seems like the state evolved for that reason, and it's kind of hard to get away from, especially given human nature. But you know, thinking about other ways of creating a community and a society and kind of instilling your values into it, we have murph's life over here, and I'm wondering your thoughts on projects like that, which are actually looking to build a community. A community that is forward thinking, but also really thinking about the locals as well and how to integrate them into that.

Mike Peterson:

No, I love the heart behind what they're doing, and it's going to be beautiful when they when they finish the hotel and restaurant there. It's in practice, it's always a lot more challenging than in theory. And I've, I've had talks with them about this as they've had, you've got to be very careful as you bring people in, people sometimes start to expect things very quickly if you do nice things for people and so, and that's, I think that's just human nature. And so you don't want to create a community of people where, you know, they have this sense of entitlement. And so that's the always the challenge is, like, how do you come in and lift people up, but without creating an undue sense of entitlement. And, you know,

Michael Ruiz:

that's a bit, yeah, and then they on the opposite without creating a rift too, yeah, yeah.

Mike Peterson:

So it's, it's very, very challenged. I mean, doing community work in community projects is very slow and tedious. And, I mean, nobody who, who's in it, has done it perfectly. They'll all tell you all the mistakes that they've made, and it's and you're never going to make everybody happy either. That's the, I think that's where the saying no good deed goes unpunished come from, is people coming in for things like that. Because you'll always have people that are unhappy that Well, why didn't you do this? Or why didn't you do that? I mean, we had some crazy guy that was messaging me every day for a while. It was like, Well, you're not helping the community. You haven't built a hospital yet. I was like, what? Wow, you should build a hospital. That's great. Like, we would love to, like, support you. Like, do it like, we, mean, we haven't, never claimed to build a hospital. Like, so it's, it's, you just have to go in it with the mindset that, like, it's gonna feel thankless a lot of times, that people are going to complain about things that they're benefiting from, and that's just human nature. That's not Salvadorans, that's just humans.

Michael Ruiz:

Well, with that said, I will. Say that I'm very much appreciative of your efforts. Bitcoin Beach was my gateway to El Salvador, as it was for many people. You know, Jim betta and Paco and all of your guys there did an amazing job at welcome,

Mike Peterson:

amazing team. I mean, they are literally, like, they're the ones that drive everything forward. It's, it's, yeah, it's, it's amazing.

Michael Ruiz:

So I would say you're doing a fantastic job at community building, and thank you so much for all the support you've given us here at sovereignty studios and just pushing the Bitcoin mission forward. Like I said, I look at you as a legend, someone who you know, saw an opportunity, took it and ran with it and created a whole movement. And just want to say thank you, and thank you for coming on too.

Mike Peterson:

No thanks. Thanks for the invite. I got to see your studios, and yeah, and you guys have the best hats out there. So

Michael Ruiz:

all right, thanks, Mike.