Bitcoiners - Live From Bitcoin Beach

Exposing Why Bitcoin Adoption Stalled in El Salvador (And The One Fix Everyone Missed) | Gaelle Wizenberg

• Mike Peterson

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What’s it really like moving to El Salvador? In this episode, Gaelle Wizenberg shares her story of starting over in Berlin, El Salvador, a small town with a growing Bitcoin circular economy and one of the few places in the world where living on Bitcoin is actually possible. From community building to starting a boutique wellness hotel, Gaelle breaks down the practical, emotional, and financial realities of creating a life from scratch abroad.


We get into the challenges and rewards of real estate in El Salvador, how expats are investing in regenerative farming and helping grow small local economies, and what digital sovereignty looks like when applied to daily decisions. Gaelle shares why she left the US, how she built a business that runs on decentralized finance, and why she believes real opportunity comes from embracing simplicity and slowing down.


This episode speaks directly to those thinking about relocating, building something new, or stepping away from high-friction systems. If you’re curious about the expat experience, building a life aligned with Bitcoin values, or finding clarity outside the noise, you’ll find this conversation grounding and useful.
Like what you hear? Tap subscribe, share with someone thinking of making a move, and tell us your biggest fear or hope about living abroad in the comments.

-Bitcoin Beach Team



Connect and Learn more about Gaelle Wizenberg
https://www.instagram.com/rabbithole.berlin/ 
https://www.instagram.com/gaellewizenberg/ 

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Browse through this quick guide to learn more about the episode:

00:00 Why does feeling at home matter when moving abroad?
01:51 What’s behind the recent wave of Bitcoiners leaving El Salvador?
02:43 How did growing up on a boat shape Gaelle’s global mindset?
07:55 How she launched a software company in the toy industry
13:12 What makes starting a business in the US so frustrating now?
19:08 Why she chose Berlin, El Salvador after leaving Florida
25:00 How she renovated a local home and built a wellness retreat
36:02 What expats need to know before moving to El Salvador
49:32 Can you actually live fully on Bitcoin in Berlin, El Salvador?
52:38 Why financial literacy is more critical than just Bitcoin knowledge

Live From Bitcoin Beach

Gaelle Wizenberg:

You need to feel home wherever you go. And so if El Salvador becomes your place to be, you need to recreate a landing pad where it feels home. And once you put roots in the ground, then you feel strong. And it's about the community that you surround yourself. It doesn't really matter where you are, is who you surround yourself, the support system. So it's such a new concept, like, right now, everybody's like, running around PTSD, right? And the whole country has to be rebuilt. So I look around and I see opportunity everywhere. And to me, it's overwhelming. I think if you're organized a little bit and if you're creative, you can really have the best life here. You just need lower your expectation, have a simple life.

Unknown:

You

Mike Peterson:

we got the music back. We Paco switched it for a little bit, but people were complaining. So the music is great. We kept getting flagged on the YouTube algorithm that it was like copyright infringement, even though we had purchased it the rights. So anyways, we brought it back. Well, we'll see if they get this pulled down, but Yay. So you made it here from Berlin. I did. It's hot. I

Gaelle Wizenberg:

was gonna say You're not dressed for the beach. Well, I'm always in the beach. And I had a few business meetings, so I

Mike Peterson:

It's okay. Okay, so you went to San Salvador first, and then, yes, yes. So we were chatting a little bit before we started. Just about more recently, we've seen for a lot of the Bitcoiners that have come here, they've been here for a year or two. They've kind of gone through that honeymoon period, and now there seems to be a little angst, and you're seeing some people leave, and we were talking about just, you know, a lot of them never been expats before, and I think that has a big impact on their expectations, and they they've known like one thing in life, and they now are just looking at what's different about here than where they came from. So you obviously are the opposite. You've kind of lived all over the place. So we'd love to have you give people a little bit of background of kind of your journey, and then we'll circle back and talk about what we're seeing here in El Salvador.

Gaelle Wizenberg:

Okay, well, so I started I was born in Paris. French parents and my dad built the boats, and we traveled all over. How old were you when he built when I was born, 1974 the shell of the boat arrived, okay, yeah. And my dad built the entire inside and everything. And he always thought it was the end of the world, the financial crisis was going to happen. So he was ahead of his time. That's it. He was a pre bitcoiner. If Bitcoin was available, then he would have bought it.

Mike Peterson:

So starting from when you were a baby, you guys were traveling around always. My sister was born in Algeria, in the Sara desert. I mean, they've been all over. I went in Dakar in Senegal when I was maybe three years old on the first trip. Hey guys, just a brief interruption. We'll get back to the exciting show here. But I just want to really ask a favor that you guys could make sure that you're subscribed if you're watching this on YouTube, if you are listening to this on a podcast, please take take a second and review this. You know, you don't even have to write a lengthy review or anything at all. Just click the number of stars that you want to give us. It really helps us in the algorithms to make sure people are finding out about what's happening here. All right, back to the show. And then, when I was five, we crossed the transatlantic ocean, and I think that's the way you say it,

Gaelle Wizenberg:

to from Cape Verde all the way to Martinique. That was 31 day at sea. We're 14 on board. It was not a small boat. Was 65 feet for the time, and he built that, yeah, yeah, it was beautiful. Go ahead, wooden boat, and now it was steel. Okay, yeah, two, math equal, and yeah, that was my home until I was 17, really, yeah. So you just were on a boat, on a constantly, on a boat, constantly. And my parents used to do day cruise and charter, like 1010, days in the grenadine islands in the Caribbean. Like, that's how they live in Yeah, okay, yeah. And, and then you guys helped out. I'm assuming, yeah, whenever I didn't have school, I would help, and we did school on the boat. We did for a few years. And then we had also a house on the land. And then we had a 90s that would just, well, while they would just take off. I had two siblings, so we have a full house, okay, yeah, pretty much everywhere you guys went were, were kind of French, provinces, islands, it depends. We went all over Venezuela. We went, Yeah, we quite explored. Got the St Martin, St Vincent, all the British islands. And then, you know, I, I went to Canada when I was 19. I left the island and I lived there for a while. I went to Japan, I went to Paris. What brought you to Canada? And were you kind of ready to be off the boat for a while? Did you, I mean, did you love it, or at that stage where you're like, I hate this? Or what was the I was living on my own when I was 17, so I kind of left the nest quite early, and I was just traveling around. I had a navy boyfriend at the time, so I followed him all over the world, at all the Navy base, including Virginia, Norfolk, San Diego, Japan. And then I ended up, I didn't want to go back to Martinique, and then so I went to Canada, and that's where I met my my husband. Okay, so where in Canada were you? I studied in Montreal, and then I ended up in Ottawa, and I was working in Toronto and between Ottawa for 12 years, and I we had a software company in the toy industry. And software company, yeah, in the toy industry, we so my father in law was a toy maker in Hong Kong, and my ex husband had designed a software for the toy industry to help all the toy maker to submit quotation form of their product, because during the toy show, it was crazy. Let's say you sold this to Walmart and you sold the same thing to target and Amazon and whatever you had to submit a form that show all the different line item, the picture, everything. And that was in the days where email was just starting. Pictures were still stapled and printed at the Photoshop. So it was just in those days, and the software would basically you plugged in all the information once it was called Speed court, and then you would just check the name of the retailer. We had all the forms, and then, boom, it would do it automatically. So we were the king in the toy industry. And because of that, I ended up going to Hong Kong quite a lot and and all my customers were there. So I I wanted to move to Hong Kong to open an office there. And my ex husband went to work with his dad to grow the toy company. And so we ended up in Hong Kong in 2002 and we,

Unknown:

we did that. So that was

Gaelle Wizenberg:

what like, five, six years after China. Yeah, about five, just after the handover in 97 Yeah, but it was great. I mean, we were in Hong Kong the best years. So from Canada, where I came from, the Caribbean, right? So never seen snow. I ended up in minus 35 windshield. I didn't drive. I didn't speak English. You know, has been Creole in French. So I learned English there in Canada, in Canada, and I give the short tour, but and then I ended up in Hong Kong, where same thing you learn to drive on the other side of the road. Then they speak Cantonese, they speak Mandarin, some English, a whole different way of living. Never been in a big city like that. So I ended up in Hong Kong. I did the software company for a good 10 years, and then I started my own baby company. So same thing, never been an entrepreneur. You got to adapt. Been a mom. Never been a mom. Something is like the expat life, you know, follows you. It's just getting used to landing somewhere and then absorb the shock and just realize, all right, what can I do here? And then, you know, seize all the opportunity that that out there and then learn because, you know, it's a language or cuisine or culture. And then I had a I lived in the Philippines while in Hong Kong, because it's right there. So it's great to have a house kind of like you, you know, we would kite surf on the weekend. And same thing learning how far is it to fly back and forth? It's about an hour and a half to Manila, and then Boracay, where at my place was another hour, if you were lucky, or half a day, if it was, you know, the usual Aspen or, Oh, kind of here too as well. So, yeah, so Hong Kong, Manuel, and then, and then I moved. I got divorced, happens, but we had a best shot 20 years. But then. My ex husband sold his dad's company, and we got transferred to Malibu, and I didn't want my husband to know California, yeah, which I never lived in the US really, other than traveling for business, I didn't want to, because my business was doing really good in Hong Kong, and my kids were born there. And I love Hong Kong till this day, but I wanted my my husband, to see his kids on a weekly basis, and that was so I'm for the family. I agreed. There's worse places to wind up than man. It was a culture shock. Yeah, the one thing that was good is that my deal was I could go to Hong Kong anytime I wanted, because I run my company there. So I was spending half the year realistically in Hong Kong and half in Malibu, which kept me sane. And then I sold my company, and then I moved to Florida, and then, and then I was bored, you know, being an entrepreneur and an expat, and also I just couldn't be in the US anymore, and I needed a new challenge. I've been, I've been in crypto for a while, and and then I also have a farm in in in Florida, and I have eight acres property. It's self self sustainable. It's really my farm solar panel. Had a perfect veggie garden and everything else, chicken and I had pigs for a while, until they got too big. And I'm Jewish, so I don't really eat pork. But, you know, bacon is not kosher. It's kosher. I and then I being having done all of that, I just got bored in the US. I tried to start a new business there, but then COVID was hitting,

Mike Peterson:

and I just, it's just so hard to create anything in the US right now. And being used to do business in China. It's also a very different way. In China, the government actually help you. In the US, it's not as straightforward. So I just, you know, so dive into that a little bit, because I've operated it. Just Sold it this last year, but operated business in California for 25 years. So and I just felt like it just kept getting increasingly difficult. I mean, you had to be an expert in all these different areas just to run, you know, a small business. And so I kind of growing up that was the way for middle class people that didn't go to university or something, they could open, you know, small business, an auto repair shop or something. But today it's almost impossible, like, if you if you haven't gone to university, or if you don't have, like, a fairly high level ability to keep abreast of everything, it's almost impossible to go that route anymore. So I'm curious as to what your experience was with that. So it's the first thing that's really, for me, annoying is the liability, yeah, just the stress of the liability of owning anything in the US, even not a business, anything is stressful.

Gaelle Wizenberg:

And then for people not in the US, we're talking legal liability that you could be sued for something. If somebody sneeze, you sneeze on you, you can get sued. I mean, it's you can lose everything, yeah, just some random thing, somebody trips and falls, nothing you could have prevented. But, yeah, and I had a baby product line, so imagine just the liability insurance was like 7 million mandatory you had to have if you wanted to sell the Walmart or any of those retailers. So it's hard to find good people that are loyal. The loyalty on the employees is not like he used to be, or, I don't know, comparing to Chinese employees, my Hong Kong staff is still there, and I could go to the moon tomorrow. They would follow me. Like, it's, it's, they're the best, and it's not just me. It's like, I think they had an award on, like, the best workforce in the world is from Hong Kong. So going from that to that, again, it's like reducing your expectation by 50% The culture is very different. And it's money, money, money. People are not in with your business because they are passionate about what you're doing. It's really their end game of how much they're getting, which is weird, which I'm not used to. And sometimes when you run a business, you don't make money for a long time, so you need to have people that support you. So there's no support there, and then the government zero help from the government. So in Hong Kong, I started a business. They gave me a small loan to when I first registered to buy computers, to hire staff, and then, if I had they wanted me to export. So if I had a trade show in Germany or the US, they would pay for half the airfare of all the staff going. They would pay for half the booth, half the hotel room. And we had a budget, about 250,000 Hong Kong a year for trade shows that they would just, we'd send the bill. They would just reimburse me. No question asked. Instead, which 250 Hong Kong divided by 7.8 is about $25,000

Unknown:

about

Gaelle Wizenberg:

I'm not good enough. Little bit more. I mean, if it's more great, but I mean, so, you know, I would get help like this. The taxes are easy, 15% one, five, you you'd first submit. You could expand your toothpaste, your school, school expenses, anything, right? So they really push people to be entrepreneur in Hong Kong, and then then you arrive in the US. I did the registration. I got one call from the government to make sure I was set up for my sales tax. That was it. That was during COVID. I never got a call. Do I need help? Is there any subvention that I was a new business starting during COVID, you would think there would be some help for encouraging new entrepreneur. Nada, see, I can tell you're not American, because we don't want to hear from the government. Like, if you hear from the government, it's a bad thing. So you you want it all at all costs for them not to be calling you, yeah, but it's just weird though, because in one way, you get the support and the help. And I think if I had grown my business in the US, I would never have been able to grow the way I grew it, because I studied from my basement in Hong Kong. By the end, we were selling in 66 countries, and it was just beautiful, like I couldn't have never done that in the US.

Unknown:

Yeah, no, it's the US. I mean, the US used to be one of the best places to operate a business. It still is for certain sectors. If your tech sector's a place that needs a lot of money, there's still, you know, there's still certain industries that thrive there. But for kind of small, you know, businesses that aren't in the tech or finance sector, it's a very challenging place to do business. Yeah, I mean, and it's not fun, so you you're playing the rat race. And I think it re move the whole excitement of being an entrepreneur, and that drive it. It's already hard to be an entrepreneur. I think they cut you short in like, they don't want you to succeed. It's basically what it comes down to, no. I mean, that was, that was main reason that I sold. I was just, I was just so tired of it. It had been fun when I was younger, but now I spent all my time worrying about, you know, the transportation agency, or we were in food service, so that the food serve, and then the employment office coming in and auditing you to make sure you're doing the I mean, it was just like, one thing after another, and it's like, okay, no, it's not, it's not worth the money. And also, if you become a bitcoiner, it's like, Okay, do I really, like Andrew Tate, right? Do I really want to put that money in that effort, and I get that stress for that amount of return, or I could have my bitcoin and serve right? Well, that's the thing. You invest in that and then you have that legal liability. That's what I was thinking as we were moving equipment down the road. It was like, I was always stressed if something happened, and then we could get sued and lose everything. And it's like, really, they push you away from being productive, yeah? So it's, it's really a shame. Hopefully it'll change at some point. But it's, it just seems to be getting, I don't know change, but I don't, I'm not going to be there to see that change. So, yeah. So to go back to the Nomad part is that, so from Florida, I just became, I love diving my farm, but I was like, it was the perfect farm, beautiful. I was doing retreats and Reiki and sound ball healing and all of the wellness things that I love doing, and kind of teaching people about designing the life they want, because a lot of people don't really know where they're going. And and then I was looking at, you know, what Bucha Lee is doing, and being loving Bitcoin and missing kind of the island life, as I call it.

Gaelle Wizenberg:

I was like, All right, maybe I just need to simplify and try to find a way where I could plant cacao. I love cacao because I love commodities, and Bitcoin and cacao, to me, are the best two commodity in the world. So I was looking at and then I figured, I realized that El Salvador had cacao, one of the best in the world, and had Bitcoin community surfing. I was like, All right, so my son and I just took a trip, and we ended up in El Salvador to explore, and we felt super safe. When was this? That was last September, two years ago, okay? And then we came back for the halving party, and my son said, Mom, you know, instead of just going forward, let's just stay a month. That way we soak it on in our 18 years old son, he's like, let's, let's just give it a good try, see if we like it. I'm like, All right. Right? So we did the halving. We had fun. Met a couple of people from Berlin, went to Berlin, loved it, loved the volcano, and reminded me of Martinique, really. So, yeah, so for me, El Salvador is like a mix between Martinique growing up in the Caribbean, the same Third World, dysfunctional kind of paradise Philippines for the people. So it's poor, super nice people, it's safe, you can get pretty much anything done. And then China on the rural area where the factories are, it's the same kind of gates. And so it reminded me a lot of of Asia, and then the vegetation, the climate, the fruit, vegetable is the same Martinique, same, same thing. So I landed here, and it was, it's really felt like home, just because I miss Asia and I miss the Caribbean. So it was a weird except people speak Spanish, which I don't speak Spanish. So, whoops, another here we go again. So that's how I ended up here. And then how did you wind up in in Berlin? So so that first trip that I took with that month, so we first arrived in Berlin, then we went and we explore all over pure surf, etc, and then we miss the community, because the friends we made in Berlin, it's quite we're quite a group. There any it's the same mess about in every town. But then I felt when you go in the other town, you didn't feel like you belong anywhere, and you don't see the people the same way over there. It's so small, the temperature is so cool, and it's just having that herb of air conditioning there, right? Or I have a duvet like this, thick, really? Yeah, it's 63 degrees in the morning. Is that cold for you? Well, I mean, considering, you know, it's not Canada or anything, but it does get chilly with the humidity factor. Yeah, I think, yeah, so it, but I love the fact that I'm not in a fridge box anymore, which that was the Florida lifestyle, which I hate it. You know, you come in and come out. It's like you're entering your fridge every time. I don't know that is the one bummer about, I mean, I love the coast, I love el Zante, but it's, yeah, you're in the air conditioning inside. And, yeah, just because it's hot, it's hot, and then you're tired, so to do any email work or whatever, it's like, Oh, you got espresso as the espresso. And then when I leave the beach, I'm tired for three days just to recover from and I grew up in the Caribbean. I mean, Hong Kong is super hot as well. It's a seed. But I think the coastal thing is, in the humidity factor just makes it harder. Yeah, no. It's perfect weather for laying in a hammock. It's very it's not a great weather for being productive. No, no. So Berlin, I and I like the fact that it's central to it's not for everyone, but if you can make a nice hub there. It's, you're close to El Cuco, you're close to and two and a half hours, I'm in San Salvador shopping, and it's great. So tell us a little bit about the community there, and what your involvement has been. I know they have the Bitcoin Center there. Maybe Paco. We can throw the picture that up, and then how you wound up? I think now you have a couple hotels there. So how did that go from being involved in the community to starting the businesses, and what have been, kind of the learning processes in doing that? So that's my son in front of the Bitcoin Center in Berlin. The the gang there, they, they studied a great center for anyone that wants to go, and all the youth that's there. So they do a lot of classes. So it's going, well, um, I, I ended up there just as a as a safe house in between the US. I figured, let me try El Salvador. And I like Berlin, I I basically didn't want to buy a property because I didn't know if I would like El Salvador or not. And I figured, let me get a lease. And I took a five year lease because the place that I could find, they were jobs. I mean, it's, that's the one thing about moving to El Salvador, it's, it's hard to find a rental property that are not like brand new, which are not always the best either,

Unknown:

that you feel home because you need to, as an expat, you need to lay roots, feel home and kind of your cocoon. If you have your cocoon, then you can do anything. Yeah? A lot of the brand new ones are kind of cookie cutter, like, yeah. I mean, you feel like you're in a suburb in the US, there's a lot of old, beautiful buildings, but have a little lack of maintenance over the years since, yeah, you kind of, you have one of those choices. And I love design. I'm an interior designer by trade. Actually, that's the only thing I ever studied. I did five years in Canada.

Gaelle Wizenberg:

Yeah, and so I love taking things that need love and fix them up. So I've been successful doing that in real estate over the years. So I basically rented a really nice little house that that was like a typical Salvadorian L shaped urban house and and I I built a whole outside kitchen. I completely fixed up all the bathroom. I fixed up everything but the roof, basically at this point. And then so I have my friend telling me, Oh, are you spending all that money? I'm like, you know, if you averaged out on a five year lease, it's not that much more parents and the rent was cheap to start with, but then I'm going to believe and feel great where I am for the time that I'm here. I can exit that lease anytime I want and but at least I'm really going to feel home, because I've moved so many times in my life that if you don't feel home, it's really hard, hard to stay happy where you are, to feel like you belong there, to feel like you're installed. So if you're camping, especially, I'm not a baby anymore. I can't camp, right? No, I've experienced that. The things that I thought were adventurous and fun and exciting, to stay in these crazy places. Now I'm like, I wonder what the mattress is like. I hope the air conditioning works like, right? You want things to be a little more comfortable? We're getting gold, as I call it. I put a jean from gold. I like that. Yeah. So I think for anybody that's leaving their their nest, they need to read nest. And so sometime it takes a coat of paint and a couple, you know, I build a deck. Now, I see the volcano. I have a place to have drink on top. I have an outside kitchen. People come, we can do salsa. It changed a complete vibe. Okay, I spent a couple of grand over five years. Who cares? I'm gonna love it. And I'm still spending less than in the US or wherever I was living. So I think investing where you are, however small or big it is, it's important to make you feel that you belong there without having to buy a house. And because building a house in El Salvador, you need not just money, you need Zen. A lot of wine, whatever it is that makes you relax, but it's very challenging. So I think before getting yourself to that kind of level of stress, it's a lot better to fixing up a place that you find where you like the community. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, I mean, it still has its challenges, but it's much easier starting with something and beautifying it than trying to build something from the ground up. Yeah. And also, if you like the neighbors, then you have a support system, because, you know, people will help you. They want you to succeed. Yeah. I'm curious, what were the neighbors reaction when you when you came in? Were they like, well, I have a world are you doing? They have a big gates up there. They would see things coming in, or they would see eight crew coming in every morning. And here, no worries. But I always put the gate up because I wanted to keep it private, and I didn't even change the outside. I left it just the way it is. It's the well lounge. But secret sauce. Yeah, and you were saying, we were talking before that, the majority of your customers are Bitcoiners. A good 90% it's either wellness or it's Bitcoiners, or it's people that want to learn about Bitcoin that are not there yet and they're just traveling and they've heard about Berlin, or they heard that they knew someone on the from the community that said, go check the well lounge. And now they're coming for the the good mattress and the good food. And that's your logo there. That is my little whale. And then Bucha. Do we have any pictures of the rooms or anything there? Yeah. So, you know, that's very the colors, you know, that's like, not typical Salvador. That's typical me, but I it feels like very Jamaica in a way. And with the cool hair, the flowers I have, like avocado trees and coffee trees and cherries, grapes growing, it's great, like, it's a little gem, a little oasis in the middle of the town, yeah, yeah. No, I love it. And the other thing is, we I do private events too. So like, we had like 32 people for with all the retailer of Berlin. They all came to have dinner and to learn about Bitcoin. And also, we wanted to thank them, because they use Bitcoin, and we wanted to encourage them to pay their employee in Bitcoin, because they need to use it. Yeah. So I made them rabbit that night, which, in general, they don't like it. But I did a French mustard sauce. It was amazing. And then we do yoga. So that's my little thing that I built on the on the side, so that would didn't. Exist. I build the whole outside kitchen, and we do yoga, we do salsa, we we do all kind of dinners, and it's fun. So when you come visit or adopt, if not adopting for economy in November, you have to, have to save you a room. No, I better. I better book now. Yeah, if you don't book now, you end up with a hammock on the on the rooftop,

Unknown:

you'll feel like the beach. Yeah,

Mike Peterson:

I will book now. That looks very nice, yeah. So where did the idea to start the hotel come from? Because I don't believe you've done a hotel before, have you? No, no, I helped my parents on the board back then, but

Gaelle Wizenberg:

I'm in a point of my life where, you know, I am on the board of director of xwell company. So I go to New York back and forth, and I help them with wellness in the airports. It's a great thing, but I'm not fully ready. I wasn't ready to just start a business in Berlin. We have so many people coming all the time, and then there is no place really nice for to accommodate them, to make them feel welcome after driving two and a half hours, it's kind of a drive, right? But also, just going through El Salvador, it's a drive. No matter where you go. It's an hour, two hours. So I was like, we need to have a place when they can arrive. And it's like, poof, you know, oh, I want to stay here longer. It's cooler, it's better. It's actually a great spot, but we need to lure them in with a landing place. So I started, I renovated the house so it was good enough for my kids, so that they would want to come and visit me. That was number one reason. And that worked. I succeeded. And then then I just like, Okay, I cannot have five bedroom just empty like that. So I started renting them, and it kind of became organic. And then the second place I unfortunately inherited after team passed away from the standard, and I renamed it the rabbit hole. It's a private members only for Bitcoin or not for the locals, because I want to keep it small. And then we have a rent room there. They can get the membership and be part of the community. But yeah, I feel like if you came to Berlin, you've gone down the rabbit hole, and then if you're coming to Berlin, you have to come to the rabbit hole.

Mike Peterson:

So Tim, for people that don't know, and I actually didn't, didn't know him, but he was a big part of the Bitcoin community there in Berlin, and maybe you can he was a pillar. Actually, was really probably one of the reason why I moved there. He was from Orlando.

Gaelle Wizenberg:

He died on his birthday, 60th birthday, on April 20, had a heart attack, right? He had a heart attack. Yeah. Fantastic guy, just a gem. And he loved the garden. He loved he loved life, you know. And he was a bit of a gangster in a good way, and we loved him. And so I'm just trying to keep the flame alive. The landlord basically was only gonna rent it to me or get it back. And if we don't have that space, it would limit for the community. We need to keep it. So I'm gonna do it for a year. So this is another place where people can rent room. Yes, yes, yes. And private event is great for parties. And I'm just adding a big vegetable garden now. So it'll be farm to table, shiso to pepper the whole nine yard. We have rabbit fresh we have fresh eggs with the so, you know, it's if anything is great for us. And then we ever come, they can enjoy it. Beautiful Miramar view from there. That's the little patio outside, yeah? And we do the Wednesday Bitcoin meetup every Wednesday, either the well lounge or the rabbit hole and and how are they close to each other? Yeah, they're 100 meter from each other. So that's the other makes it easy, yeah, logistic, yeah. And then I have my housekeeper, my gardener, and I are the chef, so we have a cook, so I'm teaching all my recipes, and that makes it all so easy. Yeah, yeah. So

Mike Peterson:

I know recently, we've had, you know, some bitcoin we talked about this earlier. Some Bitcoiners have come. Some people have left. They felt like life was too hard. Here was the gist of it. You know, some of them felt disillusioned. I think a lot of times, if you've never been an expat before, you just don't realize that there's a lot of challenges that come with it. And it's funny, you see, a lot of times people leave a place because they're unhappy, but then they are upset that the place that they go to isn't exactly like the place that they they came from. We we joke about that, you know, as in people in Texas or Idaho, that Californians leave to go there, yeah. And then they, you know, want to change it to the way California was that they. Left. So I think you see some of that same thing here in El Salvador. So just curious as to, you know, as an entrepreneur who's built a business, just what, you know, what advice you would have for people that are considering moving here? What are things for them to, you know, think through, to expect, because it is a challenging place. I mean, we've been here for for 20 years. For me, it just keeps getting better. That's why sometimes I feel a little disconnected when people complain that it's it's hard here, because, you know, we were here when the it was the murder rate capital of the world, and it was hard to get anything done, and it was hard to get any goods. And you know, now it seems like it just keeps getting easier and easier. So I think I have a little bit different perspective. But as somebody who's come, you know, more recently, what would your advice be for people to come in? What type of attitude should they have? You know, it's funny when, when I meet a lot of people, they they always ask me, where is home? Because I've lived all over the world,

Gaelle Wizenberg:

and I always say that home is where my toothbrush is, because today I'm here, tomorrow I'm there. You know, it doesn't really matter. It's you need to feel home wherever you go. And so if El Salvador becomes your place to be, you need to recreate a landing pad where it feels home, and once you put roots in the ground, then you feel strong. And it's about the community that you surround yourself. It doesn't really matter where you are, is who you surround yourself, the support system if you feel safe or not. So being Jewish in Hong Kong, I was part of the synagogue, you arrive there, boom. You meet other people. Instantly. You make friends. So if you're Catholic, whatever, sign up for your church. Or if you're part of alconic, anonymous, I don't know you know what I mean, like something that's you, boom. You go there. You'll meet people might like minded, or people going through the same problem as you. So it's, it's important to do that wherever you go, and then from that you'll, you'll meet that person that will help you to achieve that, or you'll meet that friend that becomes your new serve body. Or you meet your wife, or your husband, or whatever. I think that that helps, and also don't try to recreate what you left, because what's the point? You might as well left there. You would have saved yourself a trip, right? And plus, the word is so beautiful. Every country, every ethnicity, has something to teach you. And so here it's a language that exercise your brain, you're going to live longer because you're not getting lazy with your brain cells, right? Especially at our age. Learning another language, it's like, as we say in a Bucha, it's hard, yeah, so learn, learn how to cook all the vegetables, learn all the new vegetables, like, don't buy Apple and bananas, because that's what you were buying in California, right? So just try all the things here. Try all the vegetables. Hire a maid. You never had the money most people at the maid in California full time. Forget it. You could not afford it. Here you can and okay, you're gonna have to train it. But it's advantages that you would not have and then, or if you wanted to have babies now, have babies in El Salvador, you have a nanny full time for nothing. You know that those are the kind of things that people should take advantage of, because they never saw a lot of people that I don't want to have somebody living in my house. I'm like, get over it. It's great.

Unknown:

Yeah, my mother in law was, was just here, and my father in law also there. My my son's graduation and and my mom so great you have right cooks for you and cleans. And she's like, No wonder you don't want to leave here, right? But it makes such a difference. When you with your kids, it's like, you don't have to worry if you have toilet paper, because they won and they bought it, you know, like you have a free time, and time is so it's like Bitcoin, right? We cannot make more, we cannot buy more. I treat Bitcoin and time the same, same scarcity. So I think, I think too, is you like, I turned 50 this last year, and that for me. I'm not a big birthday person, but that was like, a, yeah, there's only so much time here and and that is more precious. So you're a tiger. A tiger, yeah, I'm 74 Okay, so I turned 50 last year too. Okay, oh, this year, this year, I don't know. Is that the Chinese? Yeah? Chinese, yeah, 74 so you're 74 Okay, August, so, yeah, probably of December, if they have my luck

Gaelle Wizenberg:

in November. Okay, yeah, so I'm I'm older, but yeah, no, 50, right? You think differently. You're like, well, do I want the stress? So here you just have to it. Is a new country, and I think we need to also remind ourselves, and I said that to anybody I talk to, three years ago, people couldn't go on the streets and be free and go to the movie or whatever, because they couldn't get out of their house. Three years ago, they tried to have their house on the outside look as ugly as possible, because they want to get right exactly. So it's such a new concept, like, right now, everybody's like running around PTSD, right? And the whole country has to be rebuilt. So I look around and I see opportunity everywhere, and to me, it's overwhelming, because I can pretty much twin all my background. I can pretty much do it all. It's like, okay, where do I put my energy? So I have to stop myself, and that's why I'm doing hotel MBB right now, because I'm trying to figure it out, where would my energy be the most valuable in El Salvador? See, I have that same problem. And recently, there's been complaints that, oh, El Salvador is high price for low quality, which there's, there's truth to that, but that means there's so much opportunity. There's all these needs that aren't being met. And so if you have that ability to offer a quality service, anything from like house painting to, you know, manufacturing quality couches to there's so many opportunities here, and the fact that there's higher prices mean that there's much more profit doing business here than there is a lot of places. And so where I don't I see opportunity, where other people complain, Oh, it's expensive for what you get. It's like, yeah, you're missing, you're missing the opportunity there that complete, complete miss. And that's why I think, and now what I love also is that, because I think we're all ADHD, or we all on the spectrum. I mean, if you're a Bitcoin, you're on a spectrum. And it's funny, because I'm on the adversary board Bitcoin of easterseal, the foundation in the US, and so now they accept Bitcoin donation that, and so I'm trying to have them to keep the Bitcoin on the balance sheet so that we can do more. And it's all to help the kids that have autism and spectrum. Kid, yeah, and I'm like, you know, it's the exact market Bitcoiners are all on the spectrum. They're all gonna donate. And they were laughing, but, you know, like, it's that brain. So I found when you're in El Salvador, in a way, there is less distraction, because the lifestyle is very simple. So for me, it just calms me down. And especially their volcanic or energy in Berlin, it's like, I go there and I'm like, I regenerate. And I think at our age, we've been going boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, building, building, you arrive here. It's just so I think it's, it's an energy that's not for everyone, but if you're that right, that right person, you can really feed on that energy, calm yourself and then think, and then jump, yeah, so, but that that, I call it brewing time. Most people cannot handle it because they don't know. They have to come down engines. They need to lower their time preference. Yes, yeah, so, and I don't think El Salvador is for everybody. No, there's people I know that love Dubai, and I went to Dubai last year. And, I mean, it's, it's amazing, but I could never live there, just, yeah, I would feel like I was in a concrete prison. But there's people that love it, because everything works, and it's, it's very clean, and everything's very orderly and so, but it's 17 time the price for everything, and then you live in a seven star hotel. Yeah, it's a lifestyle that champagne and brunch works for a while, but most of my friend that are in Dubai, the horror story of the lifestyle that goes south, you know, it's it's not a healthy lifestyle. And like you, I don't think that energy would be good for me. I enjoyed the luxury for a week or two. Great and the Connect, but no. And for tax haven, I rather be in Hong Kong. I like the Chinese food better. That's the one thing I had a meeting last night. And I miss having a lot of Asian around me because the efficiency of Asian, I think we need more Asian in El Salvador, just to put structure into place. They're so good at that. And that will just, you know, explode a lot of different things on the manufacturing part this, we can do bamboo furniture. We can do so much stuff. There's the know how the machinery.

Mike Peterson:

And I think we see that coming you see, you see Koreans and Chinese coming in. And so I think you'll see more and more of that. We need some deep some place popping up a good Chinese restaurant.

Gaelle Wizenberg:

Have you found any good Chinese food here? And these one, I think it's called Royal, okay, I forgot the name. There's one that's decent. They have really nice furniture, actually, inside goods on. And sour soup. But no, I go to Paris. That's the closest for good Chinese food. They have the best Chinatown so

Mike Peterson:

funny, yeah, we had always joke about that in California. California had the best Mexican food.

Gaelle Wizenberg:

Yeah. I mean, there's in France, the Chinese they, never lose the passport. So if somebody dies, somebody else, they code a passport so they never die. It's like there's a population of Chinese Mandarin speaker. That's just incredible. And it's been for a long time, especially Vietnamese, also a French

Mike Peterson:

Yeah, makes sense? Yeah. That is one thing too. I was talking to somebody actually in Tokyo a couple weeks ago. There was a bitcoiner there that really was thinking about coming to El Salvador. He's very much a foodie, and that's and he kept and I'm like, that's one thing that is going to be challenging, because it's just more recently that we've had better restaurants coming into El Salvador. It's still a pretty simple palette for the most part. So if you're a foodie, if that's your thing, you might be disappointed in El Salvador. So for the foodie part, I'm a foodie and I'm a chef,

Gaelle Wizenberg:

you can find pretty much all ingredient here, except, you know, good olive oil or Parmesan cheese or whatever, if you're willing to cook yourself, yes, yeah, yeah, if you're willing to cook yourself, actually, you set up a really nice kitchen. It's amazing. The stuff we're making in Berlin. My son went to catch a fish in El Coco. Two weeks ago. He came back. We made some sashimi, like ponzu sauce, yuzu, lemon, jalapeno and cilantro. It was like Nobu style. It was perfect, you know, like it's Berlin, we're in the middle of nowhere, that it was better than any you know. So you can make it all and then if you travel enough, just have an extra suitcase. Pay the extra 50 bucks, or even 200 if you need a third one. I come back always with 250, pounds every time. But it's full of, you know, everything that I cannot find here, but I you can plant it. We can find great meat. I have filet mignon and Berlin delivered every Saturday, Bitcoin chin. It's perfect. I got fresh eggs. I think if you're organized a little bit, and if you're creative, you can really have the best life here. You just need lower your expectation, have a simple life, which I think less is more in so many ways. And if you've been successful, or if you're trying to be successful, it gives you the rest that you need, because you're not all over the place spending money, and it gives you that that time to think really what it is that you want. But I think El Salvador is not one of the reason why people are leaving I think, if you talk to anyone right now, I found people don't know what to do with themselves, and it doesn't matter if they live in the US, in China or whatever or whatever age they are, the world is changing every day, and so we're All derouted. The business model we had doesn't work anymore today, the tariff, the uncertitude, the war, the this, the Bitcoin, the no Bitcoin, the Fiat, everything crumbling around. So I think we are destabilized. And so imagine you're destabilized and you deroute yourself at the same time you're lost. So that guy is going to go back to go back to the US. He'll have his mattress and his this, and he'll go to the supermarket and have all the luxury that he wants, but he'll still be empty inside. So you just got to fill your hearts, have a great community, and then it doesn't matter where you are, you're going to try.

Mike Peterson:

No, I definitely resonate with that. But I think that's something that you can't really teach somebody. They have to come and experience it. So it's, yeah, it's, it's tough. What I'm curious to dive more into bitcoin usage in in Berlin, because it seems like a place where it's really taken off, that if you want to live on a Bitcoin standard, you you can pretty easily live on a Bitcoin standard, but, but I don't live there. So you tell me, is that true or not? What's the

Gaelle Wizenberg:

so the it's really fascinating what we've achieved, like as a community, the local, the expat, the tourists that come in to check us out, the support, and just even my little website. I mean, I get 50,000 people checking my website, which I don't advertise, nothing. So they're checking to our little circular economy, right? That's what I'm thinking. They love the images. I don't know it. Yeah, but what I found fascinating is how I can pretty much everything except my rent I pay in Bitcoin, my electricity, my water, the gas next door, my gardener, my staff, everything. So the problem I have noticed is with staff, they don't like they want effective oz So, and what I've noticed is that we need to do financial education, not Bitcoin education, yeah, because people in El Salvador are not used to save. They've never been taught it. It's not just El Salvador. The entire world, even in the US is, I think, especially in Latin America, and it's there's not a culture of savings like you'd see in Asia. Yeah, they live day by day or week by week and and that's it. So what I've been doing is that I pay the general, fair price that everybody pays that way. I don't mess up the going rates, because if I really start tipping here, tipping there, that massage that was really affordable then becomes the same price as the US, and it's not fun. And I also don't think it helps, because they don't save so they end up spending that money on nothing, and then they're back at the same square. So what I do is I pay them a tip if they're doing well, if they're growing with us, and I can see that they're really doing a great job. I tip them a certain percentage and I have an extra wallet on, like a wallet situation that I have, and I put that money for them so they can see that anytime I hold it, and then if one day they leave, they can have it, or they can have it if there's an emergency, but that's teaching them, them what to save. Number two, they're saving in Bitcoin, and a lot of them, they they're scared of the phone. And I think it's not just Berlin is the generation, and they're younger than me, so the technology part, they don't have it, yeah. So I think teaching them to save, doing it for them, with them guiding them. Then you put them on that and then when they see the money going up, they're like, oh, you know. And then you get their attention, and then they believe. And because they don't have it, they don't see it, it's, it's a it's a good system the way so that that we're starting to do a lot more of that in Berlin, and I think that will empower them even further. And when you have some saving under your bomb, you make decision from a good place, not out of desperation. So I think that's also giving them like their chakras activated, so to speak.

Mike Peterson:

Yeah, yeah, no. I I think that some people underestimate how much time it takes to bring people along, and so that's one of the things that you try to get people to understand about El Salvador. Like, just as most of us, our Bitcoin journey took several years for us to to really understand it, and you never completely understand that you're always learning, but to really even consider yourself a bitcoiner, it usually takes several years, but we expect people in El Salvador to just get it overnight. And a lot of them, you know, don't even have the luxury of having time to spend listening to podcasts and all these things. They're just they're in survival mode. They're trying to survive. And so we need to realize this is going to be a decade long. Kind of transformation of the country is them moving from Fiat to Bitcoin? It's not going to happen overnight. No, it's not. And it's really nice to see all those retailers coming to the meetings, seeing what we're doing, copying even I see some because we have group chats so they see I'm doing the Bitcoin meetup, the food, I see them now up there, the social media, they're watching what we're doing, so in a way, we're inspiring them. And then they see my house, or they see my restaurant. Now they're like, oh, you know avocado toast? Oh, my God, you know they have brand they have avocado. I'm the one teaching them how to make avocado toast. It's kind of funny, but it's not so. It's like we can have so much input with what's there and just,

Gaelle Wizenberg:

you know, move it in a way that that we inspired them to utilize what they have and then utilize what they have to and what we know, bring it in that the know how, with what we have here, and then I think it's a recipe for success, but you have to have, I always say I have a PhD in rejection. That's the only diploma I ever got, you know. But it's kind of what you need here, you know. And and be perseverant,

Mike Peterson:

yeah, sometimes, you know, people will initially be like, no, no, I don't want to take Bitcoin. But then they watch, they're watching, and they see the businesses that are taking, they're thriving, and then they're like, Okay, explain to me this Bitcoin so at the rabbit hole, I have all the pricing sets and.

Gaelle Wizenberg:

Um, I have customers that are local. They come for breakfast. They love it. And then now, and they've been coming to team for years, buying beers, and they never had the wallet. So what I did is I did a member price. That's the price of the food and the drinks is lower if you're a member, and then if you're not a member, it's two, $3 more for the same thing. So, so now they all download the wallet. Now they are checking because they want to see because I've been talking to them about bitcoins, it was$40,000 so in one year, they see it sub 60. So they come for financial advice now. So really interesting to see the change. That's awesome. So do you feel, in general, the community in Berlin has been excited by the Bitcoin movement there. I think it has created a huge Bitcoin tourism, and also they feel proud of all the changes, and they see people coming, like me, investing, hiring people, so I think it's they're hoping they're game, yeah. And also, we have a couple towns around that are more touristic key, but it's a regular Salvadoran touristic, so they see the difference, and I think they feel cool, and they're starting to get it. They're like, geez, those guys, they were into something, you know. So I think they will be disappointed that now we lost the support, you know, nationwide, but I think the route is in, yeah, and it's up to us that are here to continue that, regardless of what happened with the IMF or not. I think that we needed the money for the country, and I don't think he had a choice, you know, and and on a practical level, it really hasn't changed anything. I mean, that's, that's what I tell people. On a practical level there, there's more Bitcoin acceptance than ever. They're rolling a Bitcoin education and the public school system like, there's no backing away. There's no backing away. And, you know, it's too bad I was when we were in Las Vegas. I wish Bucha Lee was there. It would have been nice to see him, but I'm, you know, I'm sure it's against his PR allowance. But I found it kind of hypocritical that, you know, the IMF is kind of like saying you cannot do this, this, this, but then the government is doing a Bitcoin reserve, you know, it's, yeah, it's either you're pregnant or you're not, you know, like, it makes no sense. So it's just politics, and we needed the money. We're gonna have a great roads and a great hospital and whatever you know, you needed the money for. And then, well, come the time that we need to roll back, we'll roll back and we just have to El Salvador is safe, that's what matters. And from that, I think if it's safe, anything good can happen, because now we can do things. And I think that's where we need to concentrate our energy, yeah, no, it's from where I'm sitting. It just keeps getting better and better, and it's Yeah, yeah. And having that reference of, you know, 20 years here now, it's amazing from where it was to where it is now. So lots of help. It's amazing to see our country can go from A to Z or to Z to A Yeah. And Martinique used to have restaurants, and we used to have the big boat coming in, and we had all kind of tourism activity. And then it became that the locals didn't want to serve the tourists, and they kind of weren't so nice. So the boats start, starting to not come anymore. And now you go in for the France, there is almost no restaurants. You can barely find any place to hang out, and it looks like a third world country where, before it was blossoming. So here it's the opposite. And so it's either you you're part of the wave, and you take the wave at the right, or you get washing machine right? So we need warriors to move to El Salvador. We don't need, I was gonna say, like princesses. It's not a, it's not a, it's not a place.

Unknown:

I'm gonna get some heat for that one. But I mean, you know, I like, it's still, it's still a rough and Rob place. It's like the Wild West was, you know, a couple 100 years ago in the US, like a lot of people went out to the West and didn't make it. They weren't successful. It wasn't for them. And so you're going to see that same thing in El Salvador, but you see other people that come here and thrive and and it's amazing, just the amount of opportunities that are here. Yeah, no, it's it's fascinating. It's exciting. You have to meet the right people and maybe, maybe not do a business alone, but maybe partner with other people. That way you have a support system. And if you partner with locals as well, you'll be able to really understand the system and be guided, because it is a different system, and that takes practice. We don't speak the language

Gaelle Wizenberg:

or media. Um, you know. So I think everything is hard any country right now, and we forget that. I think the beauty about El Salvador is that everything needs to be redesigned or it hasn't been done yet. Meanings we don't have to undo something bad that somebody did, which is great, and I just hope that on the urban coast that we develop it in a way where it's it's pretty and beautiful, and not just another cement block after another one, because that would be bad if we destroyed the coastline. No, that's been even here in El zonte, they've built some towers already. And I'm like,

Mike Peterson:

You're gonna ruin the beauty of the place. So I it's it's hard, because I understand their want for development, but I think it needs to be done in a way that, you know has long term benefit to the community. Yeah, and you know the colonial style and life

Gaelle Wizenberg:

most people are farmers here, so it's also a different lifestyle, yeah, so we're all rural. It's like cowboy boost. It's horses everywhere, and fincas and machetes. And I grew up with that, you know, banana field around my property. It's, if you're a city boy from New York, you're gonna hate it there. I think, yeah, yeah. Maybe if you're in San Salvador, you find, yeah, but yeah, San Salvador is like Santa Monica a bit. You know, that's the same feel. We're walking around a little cafeter, and it's, it's great. I think if you can ideally have an apartment in San Salvador and have a place in Berlin, is the perfect, perfect man, and then you get a weekend thing where you Airbnb on the weekend and you go surfing, then you have the best lifestyle, yeah, but I couldn't live on the beach, but I'll come visit you. Not for everybody. It's not for everybody. I kite surf. So if I could kite surf every day, I guess, but it's more surf, and the waves are tough, like around here, you have to be like a really, really good surfer, especially this time of year, there's a lot of water moving around. Yeah. Well, is there anything else we didn't cover yet? Oh, there's a lot we didn't cover, but we have to leave it some for the next time. Okay, well, I appreciate you coming down, and I'm looking forward to making up the state your place there. It looks beautiful. Yeah. So economia is, I think November 21 22nd is two days. Yeah, we're gonna have a lot of stuff going on. You can book the ticket. I believe on my Instagram page, there is the QR code. But on my Instagram, okay, I believe I have a QR code. If not, I can give you one that you can add to the link, yeah. We'll put it up in the link. Yeah. And adopting bitcoin is happening in November, also early. I don't have the date of that one, but I think it's the remember when adopting is

Mike Peterson:

15 and 16 economy as the weekend following, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's perfect. People can come in, go to adopting Bitcoin, come to elzante for a couple days and then head up to Berlin for the conference there, conference with Laguna alegria. It's a beautiful volcano, sulfur hot spring. Well, we'll just have fun. Awesome. Yeah, awesome. Thank you for having me. No thanks for coming down. Do.