What Happened to Bitcoin in Bali? Its Rise, Fall, and Comeback | Diana & Marius

Live from Bitcoin Beach in El Zonte, El Salvador, In this episode, I sit down with Diana and Marius, a German couple on a mission to make Bali a Bitcoin Island—again! We dive into their journey of moving to Indonesia, discovering Bitcoin’s potential, and building a Bitcoin circular economy despite some major obstacles.

Bali was once a hotspot for Bitcoin, with businesses accepting BTC and ATMs everywhere, until the government cracked down in 2018. But Diana and Marius didn’t give up. Instead of fighting the system, they got creative. Now, they’re educating communities, growing Bitcoin meetups across Indonesia, and running the Bitcoin House in Canggu, a hub for learning, sharing, and spending Bitcoin, without breaking the rules.

We talk about why 74% of Indonesians don’t have a bank account and how Bitcoin can help, the Bitcoin ban in Bali and their smart workaround using Fedimint, and how they’ve grown 31+ Bitcoin meetups across Indonesia. They share what it’s like to build a Bitcoin community from scratch and their big vision: Making Indonesia the second country to adopt Bitcoin!

If you’re into grassroots Bitcoin adoption, financial freedom, or just want an excuse to visit Bali, this one’s for you.

- Mike

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Live From Bitcoin Beach

Transcript

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And most of the people in Indonesia don't have a bank account, so think it's 74% which are unbanked or under banked. And even if they have a bank account, for example, in Bali, if they travel to a different island, they cannot withdraw any money. Yeah, so what? What is this? I mean, even in their own country, they cannot travel and take their money with them. You well, we finally got you over the this side of the world. It's exciting to have you guys. It's been, it's been a crazy week having all the circular Bitcoin economies here together. So why don't you guys just introduce yourselves first to the listeners and the people watching so they they know. And then we'll, we'll talk a little bit about what brought you guys to Bali, and to start the the Bitcoin house in Bali, and then, and then, kind of going from there. I know you guys have projects all throughout Indonesia, but give us a little bit about yourselves. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for having us. This is like a little pinch me moment. I feel so honored to be in this amazing studio here in Arizona with you. It's been amazing here. Um, so, first of all, thank you. Thank you so much for having us. Hey, it's our privilege to have you guys. And he traveled far to be here. So, so, yeah, a little bit more than me. I'm Diana, originally from Germany. Currently I live in Bali, one of the islands of Indonesia, and I've been there now for three years together with Marius, and we're doing our best to make Bali a Bitcoin Island. Again. Can talk, did you guys meet in Bali, or you met in Germany and went to Bali together. We met in school a long time ago. Okay, when we were 15, really. So you guys are, like, childhood sweetheart, yeah, that's super cool. Yeah, yeah, it was still after the Bitcoin invention would be, would be dope if we would met even before. But, yeah, it's after Bitcoin, yeah. Now, like, how many years? Many 14? 1414? Years? Yeah. So my name is Marcus, also from Germany, yeah. So my most important things in life is my girlfriend and Bitcoin. So we have everything here in the room, and I'm really hyped up that we are here in El Salvador. We stayed for three months in El Salvador, in Guatemala, and also we checked out Mexico. And yeah, we love this side of the world. It's really, really nice. It makes us reconsider, maybe, like, also we should move to El Salvador, but Bali is also such an amazing place, and it really feels home to us. So we are pushing there on this side of the of the globe for Bitcoin adoption. Yeah, I haven't been in Bali since 2000 but it was actually where my wife and I went on our honeymoon to Bali, and we spent like a month there. Wow. So yeah, it was we spent a good time there was, like a small island, Nusa, Lembongan, that's off of Bali surf there, so we spent like half of their time there. And I've heard that when we were there, there was like nothing there, but I've heard now it's all built up. And yeah, I'm sure Bali is very different than when I was there last how does it compare to for you guys to El Salvador, like, do you see some like similarities between Bali and and where you guys are. I mean, Bali and El Salvador, just as far as Bitcoin adoption and the development, or what you know, the way that the people are, I'm sure they're both very different from Germany. So I'm just kind of curious as to how you would compare the three places. And so I would say the weather is definitely very similar here in El Salvador and in Indonesia or Bali. Yeah, no German winter, winters, no, no, no, no snow. We both have the nice beaches surfing as a very big, big thing, also in Bali. And I would say, I mean, you cannot compare the cultures. It's very, very different. It's an Asian culture, especially Bali is a hinduistic island, so it's you cannot compare. But both, both places are very special, I would say. And there's a lot of change happening in both places, which is exciting to see. Yes and how so you guys have been there for three years. Yes, yes. Okay, yes. What brought you guys to Bali? It was like 2019 we wanted to do holidays. Mm. Also together with my mother, and like my I think Was it you or my mother? They came up with the idea, oh, we should go to Greece, in Europe. And then at some point, Diana said, Hold on, we could just like, pay a little bit more and go to Bali. We've never been there, and it looks so beautiful, and it's even cheaper living there than being in Greece, so maybe we should try it out. And then we said, Okay, let's go to Bali. And we were like, arriving at the airport, and we were blown away, like we were completely fell in love with this island, with the culture, with the food beaches, and how how it is on a small island, right? So it's really, really, really nice. And yeah, then we came back to Germany. Hey guys, just a brief interruption. We'll get back to the exciting show here. But I just want to really ask a favor that you guys could make sure that you're subscribed. If you're watching this on YouTube, if you are listening to this on a podcast, please take the take a second and review this. You know you don't even have to write a lengthy review or anything at all. Just click the number of stars that you want to give us. It really helps us in the algorithms to make sure people are finding out about what's happening here. All right, back to the show. And we were just like, damn it, we want to be in Bali. We cannot be anymore here in Germany in the winter. It doesn't make sense. And then fast forward a few years, we made the decision to to see if there's like, a different way of living on Earth, right? Because we know the typical way in Germany, how we live. We save up our money, we work really hard, and we continue doing this for years and years and years. And there's also a very clear path in life, yeah, like, every, every, everybody already knows what you will do, right? Like, things very, very regimented, very unscheduled, yeah, yes. And, and it works really good for the system, right? And if you have a solid money, then this is also completely fine, because you, you are very productive, so you can achieve a lot of things, and you can also have a lot of money, but in the Fiat world, it just scrambles or tumbles apart. And yes, we said, Okay, this is one way of living, and this worked maybe in the past, but maybe there's like, a different way, different culture, maybe more focused on yourself and living in the moment, not not only saving for the future and say, okay, when I'm old, then I can relax. But why not taking the life as it comes? Right? You don't need to plan everything. And we had a tough time in the beginning to not plan every single day and every single second. Yes, because it's so almost like it's in our DNA. But actually, it's not in our DNA. It's just like the system telling you to to work like a Swiss clock. And once we adopted to Bali, we were like, Wow, it's so beautiful. And so we did a world trip to find out how we could live in a different way. And then the second stop was Bali, just because we wanted to verify. Don't trust verify. Don't trust only your feelings. Verify that it's really so a beautiful place, and you really feel home there. And we did. We thought of just being 30 days there, we tried, and then we liked it so much. So we spent we just left Bali on the very last day where they allowed us to be there, which was like this, the 60s day. And then we continued our trip, and in all the other countries in on our world trip, we were like, Oh, this is so beautiful, such an amazing country, but it doesn't feel home. Yeah, so. And then, after like, like a half, half of a year or something, we then said, Okay, we were not here to travel the world and just see all the places in the world. It's more about like we wanted to feel a place where we where we are home. And then we said, okay, instead of now going to Australia, we just go back to Bali and see how it goes from there. And now we are there three years, and no plan on going somewhere else. Yeah. So, so how did Bitcoin come in to all of this? And then where did the idea come to to start the circular BITCOIN ECONOMY project there in Bali, I think the first contact with Bitcoin I had was around 2017 and miles, told me about this new thing where we should put some money in. But back then, I didn't really understand it at all. And then during COVID, where you had a lot of time to think about everything and to think about the world we are living in, we felt both very, very deep down the rabbit hole. At rabbit hole, yeah, and we realized that the work we are doing at the moment is completely useless. We should spend our time on something more useful and something more important. And we noticed that we really want to do something in Bitcoin, but we had no idea where our place is, and this was also one of the reason why we started traveling, because we wanted to see Bitcoin places around the world. We wanted. See how people actually use Bitcoin, and we learned a lot when we talked to people that had no bank account, that was struggling a lot, and struggling in ways we could not have imagined. And we've been to Bucha in the Philippines, where people really use Bitcoin on a day to day basis. And then we said, we want this also in Bali, but there's the ban. So we started thinking about, how can we change the system in Indonesia that people can actually use Bitcoin as a form of payment? So so maybe before we go any further. Let's talk a little bit about the band. Because I remember when Bali was the Bitcoin hub, like they were actually making more progress with with Bitcoin use and in Bali than than probably almost anywhere at a time. So So tell people a little bit about the ban and how that impacted kind of that early start of Bitcoin adoption. Yeah. So Bali is a place where people from all over the world come together. It's a very open minded place, very diverse and very innovative. And since all these people came together, they decided that Bitcoin is the money that they should use. So there was no agenda or no real this was, like in 16,014 Yeah, there was no plan behind it was just from the community. Very naturally it evolved. And there were a lot of Bitcoin ATMs, lots of meetups, and you could buy Bitcoin at like seven elevens on chain back then, and you could buy your villa in Bitcoin. And there was this kind of circular economy, but it was not known as a circular economy. Was just the people that decided that Bitcoin is the money that they want to use. And then 2018 2019 the central bank decided that this is not the direction they want to go, and they Yeah, made it illegal to use Bitcoin as a form of payment. But they also decided that all other currencies, besides the Indonesian group here, so besides their own money is illegal. So you cannot use the euro. You cannot use the US dollar for any transaction that you do in Indonesia. And they teamed up with the National Police, took the guns, and they went from shop to shop which had the little we accept Bitcoin here sign, and they shut them down. Wow. And it's so sad to see, yeah, they had an early start on the rest of the world, and they've, like, wasted it. Yeah. Imagine where they could have been now, could have been now, if they would not have shut it down. Yes, yeah. So, so you guys are trying to start a Bitcoin hub, a circular Bitcoin economy in the midst of this place where you can't legally sell things in Bitcoin, and I think you guys have kind of found a workaround for this. So yeah, I don't know if you want to talk about that yet, or if you have some other groundwork you want to lay, but yeah, just to continue the story how we ended up in Bali. So while we were traveling, we already knew somehow that we want to make Bali this Bitcoin Island again. And we thought, okay, we just need to educate the government about it, and then, if they have the right information very easily, they they will change the law, right? They just miss some some important information. So we started to write a book to the government, and we send it to everyone we could find online, all the addresses that we found, to all the islands, all the gouverneurs, to the President, to the central bankers, to educate them about Bitcoin. And unfortunately, this approach did not work, and we got some responses, but they were not very positive, and so we basically moved to Bali to educate the people instead. I love it, yeah. So when did you guys land in Bali, like with plans of moving there? When was that 2020 21 or 20? 2021 22 Yeah. So it was like, never that we now really decide, okay, we stay here forever. It was always like, we just go with the flow, and then, okay, maybe we stay here one year. Or, let's see. And actually, my mother was the, like, the only person that always knew from the very beginning. When we left Germany, she told us, You will never come back. And I said, Mom, just give us a try, right? Maybe we come back. No, you will never come back. I already know it, and she knew it from from the very beginning. So, yeah, we went to Bali, and now we are there since three years, and it. It is just perfect there. And we are not the only Bitcoiners there. Right when we arrived. Then there's there. She organized the Bitcoin Conference. We helped her in organizing the conference. There are so many Bitcoiners there that were there on the island before, and we just joined and said, Okay, how can we build this, bring this back as a community, but also one, one thing, which is maybe a really important learning for all the circular economies and all the countries in the world. What we can learn from Bali is those guys just naturally built a Bitcoin circular economy in the very early days, and it was very natural, and it grew, and it served the people, right? Bitcoin just helped everyone on this island, and then a single entity just decided, You guys stop this now, and they have the monopoly on power, so that's why they can make you stop. And I think we should always be very careful of thinking about even though we are in a country also now, in El Salvador and many other countries, and it looks very nice with Bitcoin adoption right now. It could always change. So we should not take this for granted. That is how it is right now. And we should always be humble, continue and push for the good things. And if it's happened, if it will happen in the country that they ban it, even though it was before completely legal, then we just need to be stronger and better and smarter and find a way, not pushing against the government, but finding ways together with the government, right? This is what we should do. And I think we are on a very good way in Bali. And hopefully this thing helps also for other countries that face similar problems. And we open source everything and hop on a call and just share everything with you guys that you can also bring back Bali Bitcoin in your country. So want to dive into that, and what you guys have done, kind of the work around that you found, but just to kind of set this the stage so you guys are, you're working remotely in Bali, correct? Like, that's how you guys are supporting yourselves, that you have remote work that you we live from our savings. Okay, you live from your savings. Okay. I thought when we had our call that you guys were doing some remote work, but maybe that was some of the other people on the team. Yeah. Okay, so as as industrious Germans, you saved up, yes, and probably in Bitcoin. So that has served you well, hopefully. So so you're living from your savings there. And then you guys started this, this project. So tell us how you decided you were going to work within the system, but still kind of promote Bitcoin usage in Bali. Yeah. So, as Miles mentioned, we co organized the conference, and it was an amazing event. So much fun, great people, lots of learnings. Was that an in person conference? Yeah, it was the first in person conference in Indonesia, and everybody loved it. And it was in Bali, it was in Bali. Yeah, where in Bali was in zanua And where in zanua, zanua on the West Coast. Okay, sorry, East Coast, East Coast. And this was now two years ago, right? 23 in September, or something like this. Yeah, yes. And it was Mario's Dimas, our Indonesian friend, keep lab and me and we. We were part of the conference team, and we became friends during that time. And after the conference, we were like, Okay, what's what's now like, how can we drive adoption in the country? How can we make it accessible for the people? Because on conferences, usually people come together that already know about Bitcoin and that come from abroad, and it's not very helping local adoption. So we decided, okay, we need to continue. We need to educate the people. It's themselves, and we need to have a conference basically every single day of the year for the locals. So we started translating resources to the local language. We build our website having lots of just basic information in the local language accessible for everyone. And that was our our mission in the beginning, to educate people in Indonesia and to make it easy for them to learn about Bitcoin. So we started meetups where nobody showed up. Was very disappointing in the beginning, because you're so passionate and you want to change the world, and you think you can make it, and then nobody really cares about what you're doing. But suddenly, after some time, more and more people showed up, and we started traveling a little bit across Indonesia, and when, whenever we went to different city. We also started a meet up there and asked someone, Hey, do you want to take over next month? And then we had a few locations on the map already, and then we saw some. Progress like it started very, very simple and very, very small, and suddenly we have 3031, meetups now across the country every single month. And these, these are all little communities in their city. So we don't host the meetups ourselves. They are local community leaders, which organize it together with us, with our support, and we provide lots of materials. We help them finding locations or setting up the Eventbrite posts and so on, but they are basically like full notes. They run their own community just with our support? No, and I think that's important for all the other projects to hear that, because I feel like a lot of people give up, like right before they're going to start getting that momentum, because it it takes a long time. Like you said, nobody really cares, and you feel like you're kind of just slogging through the mud and not making any progress. And so that's why I always encourage people, like, just, just keep going, because you'll be surprised all of a sudden. You'll be like, Whoa, this is actually taking off. And yeah, and I don't, I don't think any projects out there have it just like, hit from the beginning. I think for almost everybody, it's a very, very slow start, and it would have been very easy to give up before they saw, you know, that they were actually making a difference. Yeah, exactly. And now, within one year, we made so much progress. Like, honestly, I could not have imagined this. Like we have to Bitcoin house, which is insane. We go, can we put the some pictures up of that? Paco? Um, we remember you guys were talking about it. We had a conference call some somehow we were connected, and we had a conference call, and you guys were talking about this being like the desire or the dream, yes, and we were very lucky to meet Ivan. He owns a community hub in Bali, and we met him in a beach club, very randomly, and we told him about our community and our mission and about Bitcoin. And he's such a smart guy that he understood Bitcoin very quickly. And then he was like, Do you want to have your Bitcoin house here? And we're like, are you serious? Like, this was our big dream for, I don't know, many years in the future, so and then so, so tell us about the hub like this was, I guess, a bunch of C containers that have been converted. I don't how many, how many containers are there, and how many different people are there? Maybe, like, 20 or something like this. Okay, and so Iwan, he his idea was to build a community hub for many communities in Bali. So his idea is focusing on more sustainable approach, having a place which is not super fancy or something like this, but really basic, simple and nice, where it's affordable to bring your community to build on something to solve a problem. And yes, so this is his idea. He has, like, a co working space there and a nice cafe. And after a few hours of talking with him to with talking with him about Bitcoin, he asked, like, the best questions I ever got asked in my life from somebody who just started to learn about Bitcoin. And I was like, wow, damn. He's really smart. He's super smart. And so what other kind of projects and people are in the other sea containers? There they are, artists, philosophy clubs. There was a sunglass company which took the ghost nets out of the ocean and build sunglasses out of it. What else does the yoga center fashion label? Yeah. Are they mostly expats? Or are there Bonnies in there? Or what's the like, kind of mix of people? It's mixed. I would say some, some, of course, are foreigners, because lots of foreigners are in Bali, but there are also lots of locals at this place because it's so casual and not high class. Yeah, and it's a very nice place. So there's a rooftop, there was a pool, but we removed the water and we put our badminton court there, our fertiman and a nice restaurant, yoga space. I mentioned what's nice you can have, like the restaurant and all that stuff there for people, but you don't have to run it or, yeah, worry about it. Yeah, that's very, very serve you guys, yeah, like that. And Lee one is also really happy, and us taking over step by step even more areas of the place. So at the beginning, it started with just like the container, which is actually then the Bitcoin house. And you can see on the map, on the very top, very bottom left the second pictures, where you see the guys sitting there. This is inside of the Bitcoin house. And then on the very. The bottom left, there's like the all the shoes in front of the Bitcoin house. So we have a very, one, very important rule, which is, no shoes, no shit coins. And we were afraid at the beginning of putting it there and being maybe too Bitcoin maximalistic, but it turned out that people really appreciate this. Yeah, even shit corners appreciate this, because they know, okay, these are the rules. Here. We learn about Bitcoin. We talk about Bitcoin, and this is it helps a lot. So this is the place. But then more and more we we made the Bitcoin coffee. So like, made a Bitcoin on menu. And there's a parking lot in front of the Bitcoin house. So we asked Iwan, can we make it completely orange, right? And then he said, of course, sure, go for it. And then we put, like a Bitcoin us only parking there. And suddenly all exactly this one, we put this there, and we thought that we just have like one parking lot for the scooters, because in Bali, everyone just drives a scooter. So we thought like putting this there, and then we have at least one parking lot which is only for Bitcoiners. But as this whole thing has turned orange, nobody, like everybody, is afraid to park there, because they think it's only for the Bitcoiners. So we have always the place completely free for the Bitcoin community. And suddenly people come to us and they say, I cannot find the parking lot here. Can I learn about Bitcoin? Right? And then I can park also with you guys. And so it even helped us that more people want to learn about Bitcoin so they can get a parking spot. And yes, we will the fertimentum cord, which is badminton, but we turn it into ferdiment and because we use fedimint or Fe the app in in Bali as our workaround for the difficult law, so that we can still use Bitcoin to get goods, yes, and like, if it's really nice, because even like, always is, like, very welcoming if we say, Oh, we want to put a big Bitcoin flag somewhere, a big Bitcoin sign or whatever. Like, he's always, like, really happy to support Bitcoin. And learned about this. His family, his kid start saving in Bitcoin. His wife also learn about Bitcoin. I like it's just fantastic. And all of those other communities, we help each other. And what we also learned is just not focus on being around Bitcoiners, but then go into those other communities, connect with them and show them that Bitcoin is actually the solution they are looking for, for their project, to grow their project, yeah, like a community garden, and then if they can accept Bitcoin, they can just use the proceeds of this to support their mission. And having, like, a solid community garden, growing plants and and having, like, a nice, nice space and can compete against, like the rising prices of of land and villas, and so it's really nice to see that actually bitcoin is the solution for every community, which is there no that's I love that. I love how kind of organically it's kind of grown up, starting from this kind of small idea, and you guys are expanding. And I think you guys did, I don't know if you've continued to do it, but I know you had kind of a fundraiser early on. If people wanted to donate, then you guys would put, like, their name or the name of their company up on the I think, using magnets maybe, or something on the wall, like there in the container. Yeah, we have a supporters wall so everybody who sends us some sets via geyser gets a little wood sign with the name and the amount of sets they send to us. And then, unfortunately, we don't have a photo here, but maybe we can send it later on. And then we have a big wall with all the little names name tags inside, because it's not just us, right? It's everybody who supports us and who works on the project. We are all Bitcoin house, Bali. We are all Bitcoin Indonesia. And I want to highlight this. It's not just us doing the work. We could not do this without the support from the community. Yeah, and obviously, while you guys are gone, I've been gone for the last few months there, the work has continued to go on, I'm sure, and there's people there doing that. So, yeah, it's great to have a good team. It's so important. Yeah, no, the stuff we've been able to do here in El sante Bitcoin Beach is like, I mean, never would have happened if it was the dependent on me. And, you know, even now, you guys saw, as we did this circular BITCOIN ECONOMY conference this last week. You know, I hardly had anything to do with it, like the team, you know, they came up with the agenda, they came up with the schedule, they put it all together. The only thing I was telling them was, like, okay, maybe that's too much. They're like, No, we're gonna go from nine to six. Have some breaks in there. So, but they did an amazing job with it. So it's yeah so important to have have a good team. Yeah. So, so where do you guys see this going longer term, and how have you guys been able to support this? Has it just been through through geyser? Have you guys been able to get any other like support for this project then and then, obviously, we want listeners and people that are watching this to be able to get involved and to support you guys. And so, yeah, talk a little bit about how this is funded. Yeah. So in the beginning, it was really our private money that we spent on building all of this and getting it started, because we were so passionate about it and we really wanted to do it. Yeah, and then, thankfully, we created the geyser fund, and so many people supported us, which was very, very important, because we are very we were also very close to shutting it down again, and because we were running out of money. And I think guys are so important to really kick start these projects, and especially because when you start a project, you cannot really apply for a grant, because grant givers want to see proof of work first, yeah, and you have to have some kind of credibility. And we were not very known in the Bitcoin space before all of this. So yeah, Bali is kind of far away from where it's the conferences and the people interact, yeah, so it's on the other side of the world. Yeah, it's super sad, because it's one of the biggest countries in the world, but nobody talks about it, and Bitcoin helps us so much in Indonesia, so this also what we want to change. But yeah, after, after receiving a lot lots of money for the geyser fund, we were also able to get some grants and bigger supporters like Human Rights Foundation, open sets and block and we are very, very happy that they covered our ass, basically, so that we could continue our work and to grow it. Yeah, and I think now, after one year, we planted a lot of seeds, and we really want to see those seeds growing now in the upcoming year. So let's cover the how you guys have integrated fedimint in and kind of how this gives you guys a workaround of this law that says you cannot transact and things other than the rupiah. Yeah, you want to do, yeah? So as we said, paying in Bitcoin is 100% illegal. If you have a bad day, it might bring you in jail paying with a Bitcoin. So that's the problem that we have. And this goes for all other currencies beside the Indonesian group here. So we try to find a way talk to lawyer and just get creative to make it happen. And so what we came up with is that Starbucks, they have their points inside of the app, the Starbucks points. And whenever you buy at Starbucks, you collect some points, or if you have $10 you can buy a gift card from Starbucks, and then you can top up your wallet and you have this, those Starbucks points inside. And what you can do with this is you can go all over the world to Starbucks and just pay with your Starbucks points, but they are not a legal tender or any currency. They are just points. And so the idea was, if we could say that Bitcoin, bitcoins or Satoshis, are our points, then we basically have the same thing as Starbucks and many other merchants. And when different merchants join the community the closed loop system. This is how we need to call it closed loop system, because it's only allowed for community members and for merchants that say they are part of it. So if we all use the sets as our points, then this is not Bitcoin, right? These are just community points. Yeah, you're trading value for value. You're not selling things. You're exactly, yeah, yes. And so then it becomes just very clear, we have community points. We have a closed loop system, and the merchant and the customer, they both use the failure app. And as we are all operating in the failure app, and we are all using just IOUs, it's not really Bitcoin, right? If somebody from the government Listen, is not Bitcoin, right? It's just community points. And if you look at the experience, because of the way the E Cash System works within feminine exactly, obviously, you always have the right to go back to Bitcoin, but it has that, yeah, exactly, yes. And so it is very, very easy to use it. And also, fadey is connected to lightning. Fadey is also connected to on chain. So it works very, very well. It's the exactly the same experience as anywhere else in the world, but it's just a nice way to agree, together with the government that this is completely fine in the country. This is a closed loop system. This is not a solution. That was invented to to get rid of the fiat system, right? This is, this is something else. These are just computer community points. And so we are using this. Nothing to see here, exactly. So it works very, very well, and it has a great user experience. Failure is also amazing, because now suddenly you have a chat so the community has has a chat function within Fady. We can place mods in Fady. So we have, like a swap feature. You can do the on ramp and off ramp of Bitcoin. You can put it in the app. You can make it like a schedule or whatever you want. You can put this in this apple, like as a community Super App. So we are really happy that Fedi exists, that they built this. And, yeah, without Fiddy, there would be no circular economy in Bali. And so, yeah, it's a great solution. So what is kind of the long term goal for you guys? You think, like, 10 years from now, you'll be living in Bali? Do you have any thought that far? Or is this like, hey, we want to help start this up, and then when it gets momentum, we'll, like, pull back and let it kind of take on a life of its own. Or what are you guys thinking at this point? So if El Salvador is the first country which has Bitcoin as legal tender, then we want Indonesia in general to be the second country. And this is a little competition to all of the other circular economies and people all over the world. We want to be second. Um, yeah, but I, I think we will stay in Indonesia for for the next couple of years. We really want to turn Bali into this Bitcoin island that it should be, um, and we always see Bali as the epicenter of Bitcoin adoption in Indonesia. So we have the Bitcoin house. We try out a lot of different things there. We really started everything there, and we also started this closed loop system there. But we want to empower also the other communities, right? So we have all these different communities on the map already, and these are communities you guys are having, have helped start meetups in and that have ongoing community, exactly. And if our approach works in Bali, they can just replicate it in their community. And this would be very, very easy for them to do, and it's super fun to see now that some of the community leaders in other places are really starting to build something on their own. So there's one community leader in BOGO he has also a basketball team, and he now turned this basketball team into a Bitcoin basketball team. So the kids are learning about Bitcoin. They have Bitcoin on their jerseys. It's so much fun to see those little kids in these Bitcoin jerseys playing around and screaming Bitcoin because they get so excited. And there's one community leader in banjuani, I hope I pronounced correctly, and he wants to start his own Bitcoin house. So we really see us like the as the leader somehow or the, yeah, like the beginning. But it's not just us. Really want to empower all these other communities to do their own thing and to just be a little bit inspired by us and we support them, and let's see where this goes. So you had mentioned earlier that that you know the goal would be to have Indonesia be the second country. Have you guys? You seen any green shoots, as far as government officials coming around? I feel like there was a rumor circulating a couple years ago that somebody was supposedly going to be the next president of Indonesia, or potentially be the next president was going to speak at the Bitcoin Conference, or some item I'm just vaguely remembering. So have you guys seen any progress towards them changing their stance on Bitcoin? Yes, so like there were a lot of good news. So this was RIT Van comil, and there were chances that he becomes maybe the next president. He was very pro Bitcoin. He wanted to make Bitcoin mining really big in Indonesia, and there are many other things. So we a lot of times meet with politicians and try to talk, try to educate. Even Dimas from our team. He met with the last president of Indonesia, so JUCO vido. And JUCO vido said many positive things about Bitcoin. He told the youth to learn about Bitcoin. So even though there is this payment ban of Bitcoin, which is mainly because of the central bank, this doesn't mean that a lot of politicians are very positive about Bitcoin and are in contact with Bitcoin communities, and want also to do something. So I think it can, as it went very quickly, from bitcoin is everywhere, in Indonesia and in Bali to there's a ban. It can also very. Quickly change in the other direction again, and they see, oh, there's large potential in using Bitcoin in our country, as it is a strategic reserve or in whatever form, right? Indonesia is very rich in natural resources, so mining is a huge potential. And we have abundant energy basically everywhere, but the same as in Germany, where the government takes care of the national grid and pays everyone, no matter if they need their electricity or not, it makes the market completely inefficient, and in the end, just the normal people need to pay a higher price on electricity. But what we see is there is interest from the politicians. Of course, there's also sometimes just individual interest. But I really hope that we get to this point where maybe the son of the last president, he is now the Vice President, maybe through him or through the education ministry, we will find a point where Bitcoin goes on top of of the heads we, everyone in the government would talk about this, and we bring back Bitcoin in its fullest potential. Well, I mean, I can't think of a place that makes more sense than than Bali, because you have people from so many different, you know, so many Europeans, yeah, Australians, people from New Zealand, American surfers, like all these people coming in. And so if you have one money and not having to exchange like that, would be so helpful. And and then I think just, you know, we've seen in here in El Salvador, how much Bitcoin can impact tourism. You know El Salvador. It just stats came out that last year they were the had the second highest tourism growth in the world. They had like an 80 wow, I think it was like an 89% increase from they they used 2019 as the base year, because tourism around the world kind of fell after that. And so a lot of countries haven't even gotten back to their pre COVID But El Salvador is like 89% higher than that. I think the only country more was Qatar. And so I think for like Bali, where there's, you know, so dependent on tourism and international tourism, you have those exchange issues. You have this way to promote the country. I mean, there's so many natural like reasons that it would be great for Bali so, so you gotta push them the I probably on that side of the world, maybe they're not even like hearing about what's happening in El Salvador. But I think just if you can get in front of people that are involved in tourism there with the government, just for them to see, like, hey, El Salvador made this one little change, and it had this huge influx of businesses and tourists and people coming in to buy properties here and invest and it's, it's really transformed. I think that same thing could definitely happen in Bali. Absolutely. It's, it's so obvious somehow, but it's also difficult, at the same time, to convince people that this is the way to go, and that actually there's no other way to go. And it's not only about tourism or making Bali more attractive. Bitcoin also really helps the people Indonesia. What helps the people involved in that industry to actually continue to thrive with it, to not be pushed out and priced out because of that, because they're actually saving and building something in a currency that holds its value. Yeah, and most of the people in Indonesia don't have a bank account, so think it's 74% which are unbanked or under banked. And even if they have a bank account. For example, in Bali, if they travel to a different island, they cannot withdraw any money. Yeah, so what? What is this? I mean, even in their own country, they cannot travel and take their money with them. And there are so many banking scams. People in our community we we know lots of people who lost all of their savings just because some someone took the whole, like, all the money from the bank account, and then there's no support from the bank or the police or anybody, they just are left with the with the debt. And it drives me crazy sometimes when I think about this. So yeah, we really want to change something for the people themselves, and to give them the tools that they need to have a better life, a more self serving life, and make independent decisions and be not censored and controlled all of the time. And I'm very I'm always very surprised how miles can be so optimistic when it comes to the government. I'm on the other side of the spectrum. Well, it's good you balance each other. Yeah, for me, it's always very hard to have hope and trust in them, because they disappointed us so. Many times, and I see so many bad, um, things that are happening or planned, like CBDCs are coming, there's a new law to track more of the transactions and to control the people even more, cameras everywhere, censorship. You cannot really talk about problems if you are journalists. So yeah, but I hope you are right, and it's not me. It's just too pessimistic about this. So how can people in the community support you guys? Is there? Are you encouraging people to come and spend time there. And if they're planning, should they reach out to you guys to figure out where to stay and those type of things, or do you have something else direction to point them? I don't know how, how much, how many visitors you guys get, or how you guys handle that. So, yeah, it's been crazy the last couple of months. So many visitors at the Bitcoin house, which is great. I mean, this is why we built all of this. But yeah, everybody's listening. Please come and visit us. Please take a look how Bali is evolving, how in Asia, Indonesia is evolving. Install a Fitty wallet. If you come and go around and look for the orange signs, we'd say redeem your Bitcoin here. We don't say pay in Bitcoin here. I like that. Redeem your Bitcoin here. Yeah, and just explore Indonesia. It's such a beautiful country, and it's not just about Bitcoin. There's so many things to see and to do. So yeah, always, always let us know if you're around perfect. So how, how can people be in contact with you guys? How can they follow you on Twitter? How can they support you? Yeah, make sure you put all that out as we kind of finish up here, so people know how to get in contact with you. So we have a geyser fund for the Bitcoin house Bali. I think that's quite easy to find. And then on Twitter, it's BTC house Bali and Bitcoin indo 21 for the country wide project. And same applies to Instagram. Okay? And do you guys have personal Twitter accounts, or you just do everything through I have a personal Twitter account. It's boule, Bitcoin, e, u, l, e, Bitcoin, okay. And lots of people ask, what does it mean? Someone said, it sounds like ballot, but no, it's not wooly. Is the like the gringo? Okay? Way of saying you are foreigner in Indonesia, yeah. Okay. And it can be used in a nice way and also in a not so nice way. Yes, yeah. So for me, just follow the the the our official accounts, right? This is the best go to Bitcoin house, Bali, or Bitcoin indo. Just type it in wherever you want, and hopefully you will find it even on nostr. And as I also manage them. You get right to me, if you, if you send a message there, and, yeah, if you want to get also, like a wooden sign and be part of the Bitcoin house. So everyone who donates, I think it's more than like something like $10 so we will go to the wood dollars. Now we talking SATs here, yes, uh, 1000s. Or was that 10,000 sets? 10,000 sets? If it's more than 10,000 sets, then we will go to the wood maker in Bali, and they will make you a nice little wooden sign, and you will become one with the Bitcoin house. So the plan is that, like right now, it's the 40 foot Bitcoin mining container, and it's all metal, so, but if the supporters wall is growing, we can make it full wooden all around. This would be awesome. Oh, we can have a second container on top the lightning container. That's a little dream we have. I love it. I love it. Well, I'm stoked that we were able to get you guys here, and it's been great being able to get to know you guys over the last couple days. And I know you've been here for a while. We saw you at adopting Bitcoin too here in November, so it's great you got to spend so much time. And now hopefully we can push the community to support what you guys are doing there in Bali. And hopefully next year, we'll be able to do this again, and we'll get some updates on how things are going. Yeah, hopefully, and for everybody, save the date, in September, there might be something happening in Bali. So, nice, nice. Okay, it will be an official announcement soon. Okay, so will it be? It'll be in Bali, yeah, okay, yes. And then where? Oh, I forgot to ask, where is the Bitcoin house? What it's in? Changu. Changu, Where's, where's that? This is the surfer spot, one of the a lot of surfer spots. And, yeah, it's on the West Coast. Now I'm right, right in the south southwest. Okay, yes, it's like the buzzing area of Bali, and they have a lot of surfers. There's, like, a lot of things going on there. So it's like the. Perfect spot for the Bitcoin house. Because basically everyone who comes to Bali, they need to go to jungle, need to go there. They need to be there. So that is, that's where the Bitcoiners are, yeah, and we on the main road, so you cannot miss us. Awesome. All right, guys, you heard that you gotta, you gotta get to Bali. I mean, Bali is beautiful. I mean, amazing place. So, and the fact that there's a Bitcoin house there, that kind of cements it. So definitely my wife and I will put that on our list of places we haven't been there since our honeymoon. And that was second honeymoon 2025, years ago. So yeah, so we need to go back amazing. Well, thank you guys. Thank you for having us. You.