BREAKING: This US State Is Making Bitcoin Part of Its Strategic Treasury! | Dennis Porter

Live from Bitcoin Beach in El Zonte, El Salvador, in this episode, I sit down with Dennis Porter, CEO of Satoshi Action Fund, to talk about the exciting push to bring Bitcoin into U.S. state policies and beyond. Dennis shares his personal Bitcoin journey—from running fitness studios to becoming one of the leading voices advocating for Bitcoin-friendly legislation.  

We dive into his latest efforts, like Pennsylvania’s groundbreaking proposal to create a state-held Bitcoin reserve, and the momentum building across other states for similar initiatives. We also chat about how El Salvador’s bold Bitcoin adoption has inspired lawmakers worldwide and how Dennis is helping policymakers connect the dots on Bitcoin’s benefits.  

If you’ve ever wondered how Bitcoin intersects with politics, why it’s gaining traction on both state and international levels, or what the future of Bitcoin advocacy looks like, this is the episode for you. Plus, we talk about why understanding Bitcoin isn’t just for tech geeks anymore—it’s shaping the policies and economies of tomorrow.  

Grab a pupusa and join us for this fascinating conversation!

- Mike

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Live From Bitcoin Beach

Transcript

Dennis Porter  
We believe that it's critical that these states do create strategic Bitcoin reserves, and that we use that momentum that's created by that to get not just the United States but the world, to do it. This is going to be the first of its kind policy here in America. But it's not just this state that's going to be pursuing this. There are actually multiple states that we're lining up in the beginning of 2025

Mike Peterson  
Dennis, we finally got you down to the real Bitcoin country.

Dennis Porter  
That's right

Mike Peterson  
You posted that one time and you were flying over Bitcoin country, but it wasn't El Salvador, so we had to correct you. 

Dennis Porter  
That's right, yes, I'm happy to be corrected. But we're coming up on your tail fast. There could be multiple Bitcoin countries.

Mike Peterson  
Only be one first. 

Dennis Porter  
There'll only be one first that is correct and proud to be here, happy to be here, chatting with you.

Mike Peterson  
Took you long enough? Far, far too long. Some would say, 

Dennis Porter  
far too long. Some would say, I should have come here many years before.

Mike Peterson  
Your parents would say that, yes, yeah, a couple of people, yeah.

Dennis Porter  
They've been here for 15 years. Bitcoin brought us together so that we could reunite and happy to be here in this beautiful country, in El zonte. I mean, what a beach, what a beautiful place. 

Mike Peterson  
Bitcoin brings people back together. It does, yeah. So I actually met Dennis' parents long before I knew him, his parents are missionaries here in El Salvador and and that's what brought us to here to El Salvador, is we work with a bunch of different missionaries here. And so knew his parents very well. And I can't remember one time they were like, they asked me something there about if I knew you or something. And so it was, I was like, no, he's one of those crazy Bitcoin people.

Dennis Porter  
Well, the first time I heard about you, it wasn't a name. I just heard from my dad. There's a guy who likes Bitcoin in El Salvador. And I was like, Yeah, Dad, there's, there's guys that like Bitcoin, like, all over the world. And then, like, six months later, I see Jack miles flying down here, and Peter McCormick coming down. And I was like, Dad, you didn't tell me that. Like, there was a country about to go and adopt Bitcoin, make a legal tender. It's just some guy, some guy doing, doing the Lord's work down here. 

Mike Peterson  
Yes, yes. So it's, no, I'm stoked to have you down here. I'm sure your parents are stoked. What's, what's your impression been so far.

Dennis Porter  
Honestly, I've been really impressed with in a number of different ways. You know, I get it. I get it. I get a pretty unique perspective, because my parents have been here so long, so I get to hear an outside perspective. I would say most Bitcoiners have a very narrow perspective. Wouldn't say it's wrong or incorrect, but mine's just a little broader. Get a little bit more broader of the history, and I've been just really impressed, to say the least, with the place that the country is in. Mostly I'm staying in the city. So it's great to see the city developing. They're built. I

Mike Peterson  
mean, they're building. It's construction happening everywhere,

Dennis Porter  
the freeways, the highways, the infrastructure projects. So it's what it's almost like watching a country just develop in real time, building apartments. I'm staying in one of the new apartments down there. And so it's exciting to see this country move forward. It's doing it for a number of different reasons. Bitcoin playing a part. And so that's fun to watch Bitcoin play a part in the success of this country. Saw a story. Yeah.

Mike Peterson  
So I know now you're you're focused on the in the political space, advocating for Bitcoin, I think mostly on the state level, in the US, but we'll obviously get into that. But first, would love to you to kind of explain your Bitcoin story, what brought you into Bitcoin, and then how you decided to get into politics.

Dennis Porter  
Absolutely so in 2017 I had found Bitcoin because a friend of mine had told me that there was this perfectly anonymous internet money. And I thought there's no way nothing on the internet is perfectly anonymous, and so I started to research Bitcoin just purely for the you know, as first time I've ever heard of it in 2017 I started research it just so I could prove him wrong. Nothing more fun than proving someone wrong for me. But while I was in there trying to prove him wrong, which I eventually did, we all know, in the Bitcoin space there are privacy enhancements, but bitcoin is not truly perfectly anonymous. But while I was in there studying and I found so many things about the technology that I did really appreciate and did come to fall in love with at that time in my life, I cared a lot about social impact of money and how there were so many people in the world that are underbanked or have no banking access whatsoever. Even today, 2 billion people are not banked, and so I saw Bitcoin very quickly. After watching guys like Andreas Antonopoulos talk about it, I saw Bitcoin as a solution for that problem, and from there, off to the races and started to study Bitcoin. Become obsessed with it, fell down the rabbit hole. Was studying it for about three to four years before I decided to come out of the shadows. I was an anon on Twitter, just. Listening, which I always recommend to everyone, listen and learn as much about Bitcoin as you can before you start speaking about it. It's a great way to get yourself in trouble of your opinions if you start speaking about it too, too soon. And then shortly after that, I, you know, in 2020, 2021, I realized, you know, I got to do something in Bitcoin 

Mike Peterson  
because you were running, you had, like, health club or something, right? Or you're doing something in the health space. 

Dennis Porter  
I had for me, I was currently, oh yes, yes, my family, so me and my significant other, we own, we had owned two fitness studios, that's right, yes. So two fitness studios. We were running those for about seven years, and we transitioned out of those recently, after the shutdowns. It was just brutal. We wanted to get out of the space. And I also was very interested in, for me personally, the mining components of Bitcoin, that was really attracted to, that I was also really attracted to, potentially, like building an app in Bitcoin. But nothing really had materialized early on. So several years later, 2020 2021, is rolling around. The bull market's coming back. I see sailor jumping in, and I'm like, oh my god, I gotta, I gotta do something. I gotta do something, right? So, of course, you know, just like every average person, I decided to launch a podcast and start talking about Bitcoin and start to jump on Twitter spaces. Clubhouse got popular for speaking about it. But eventually, I really saw the need to to to jump into the political space, which I'm sure we can talk about here more at length. But ultimately, I just saw that we were going to run into a lot of problems where maybe bitcoin is outside of the political system, but we as individuals are not, and governments can do what governments do, and they can interrupt our free ability to access technologies like Bitcoin. 

Mike Peterson  
Yeah, I remember getting a call from you. I think it was a few years ago when you were thinking about doing this, and you were just kind of picking my brain. I don't know if you remember, you remember that, but we talked about politics and advocating, and I had a little experience helped get a bill passed, and the state of California, and kind of, yes, I mean the ins and outs and how you manipulate the political parties against each other. And we, we were trying to get a bill passed for my food business to allow you to cook fresh churros in, like, off a cart. And they had rules that wouldn't allow it, but they would allow hot dogs. So So we played the I was like, well, we'll just play the race card. We'll tell them, they're they're racist against Hispanics if they don't let us, if they don't let us cook churros. And so it was just fun process that took two years. We finally got the bill passed. So it was, it was kind of funny, because I've been working with the Health Department before, and it's like, this what I want to do, and they're like, nope, the only way you can do it is to pass a bill. And I'm the type of person if you tell me I can't do something, I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna go pass a bill. Then, Yep, yeah. Probably wasn't worth all the effort, but it was, it was a fun learning process.

Dennis Porter  
I have, I have the same urge to prove people wrong pretty consistently when they tell me I can't do something. So I love to go out and do it. So if that's carried me forward pretty well in life, and it's what's probably the at the epicenter of what launched, you know, how we launched Satoshi action. A lot of people like, Oh, you got to stay away. You know, Bitcoin and politics are separate. You got to keep, stay away from the government. But this isn't going to work. The government's going to ban it anyways. You might as well just duck and hide and move to El Salvador, so to speak. So yeah, very exciting, though, to be able to secure wins for Bitcoin in the political space, despite some of the skeptics. But I think a lot of people really come around now to just the value of onboarding your own government, your own country, your own city, your own state, so that you probably benefit from the technology. 

Mike Peterson  
It definitely, I mean, we've seen here in El Salvador, and we've always been clear we think, we think Bitcoin is bottom up, that it's not top down, that it's grassroots driven, but it makes it so much easier if the government isn't against you. And so, you know, a lot of times you just want them to, like, at least be neutral and stay out of the way, but, but if they're positively disposed to it, it definitely makes it more helpful.

Dennis Porter  
Yeah. I mean, obviously you always want the government on your team, if you can. I mean, I just it's, there's, like, these a bunch of old sayings, but one of my favorite ones is that you might not be interested in politics, but politics is interested in you. And so it's like you could, you know, pretend like this world doesn't exist. Can stick your head in the sand, and that could work for a long time even, but I think eventually it is going to come around to haunt you. There's another saying. It's like, if you refuse to to acknowledge your responsibility to to work in government, the people that despise you are going to work in government, and you'll be governed by your inferiors, or you'll be governed by fools, right? So we want to make sure that people who deeply understand Bitcoin are in government, or are at least being advised by people who deeply understand Bitcoin. 

Mike Peterson  
So is what you guys are doing? Is that what would be considered lobbying, is that, are you lobbyists? People call

Dennis Porter  
me a lobbyist a lot. I sort of, I don't take offense to it. I just think it's a misclass. It's a misclassification of what we do. A lobbyist is like a hired gun. So you and I could hire a lot a lobbyist. We just pay them, and they help us to get 

Mike Peterson  
regardless of what it is like, yeah, something they care not. They don't doubt, as long as they're getting paid, they're gonna, they're gonna advocate for it, 

Dennis Porter  
Generally speaking. I mean, some people won't lobby on certain issues because they either don't, it's not their expert. Or maybe they do feel some sort of like ethical boundary there. But generally speaking, you'll go to a consulting firm that is a lobby shop, and you'll say, This is what I want to get done. This is what I'm trying to do. And what does it cost to hire you for a monthly retainer so that I can help, have your help and that I'm not I'm not against lobbying in the sense. I just think that it's very different from what we are and who we are at our core. We at our core, we are advocates, and we are an advocacy organization because we actually are there fighting for Bitcoin. We're not there fighting to get paid. We're there fighting to advance the issue because we deeply care about Bitcoin. So you'll see this is commonly like, you know, with other entities, you know, you have things like the NRA, for instance, right? The NRA fight. They're an advocacy organization. They fight on the behalf of gun owners because they care about helping people have access to their gun rights. And they don't, actually, they don't have a ton of money. They're not really filled with resources like most. What I would say people who op some some groups who operate in politics, because they're really there to advance the issue, but they're, they're very influential, and so even though they're not, they're not a huge organization. Everybody knows, yeah, they carry a lot of weight. And no, no Republican will oppose, you know, the Second Amendment, because these guys will show up and they'll primary you and they'll knock you out. And that's because they deeply care about protecting gun rights, and we deeply care about protecting Bitcoin, and we'll essentially, you know, I wouldn't say, Do whatever it takes, but we will. We will exhaust all resources. We'll exhaust all tactics, all efforts, to advance the cause of Bitcoin and make sure that Americans have access to Bitcoin. And then the great thing that's really exciting about the work that we've done is it's evolved into helping the world have access to Bitcoin because of the success that we're having in the US advocating for Bitcoin, other groups, other lawmakers and politicians all across the globe are reaching out to us and saying, How do I do what you're doing in my country, the benefit of being in the US is, you know, we have a lot of very big Bitcoin holders and a lot of big Bitcoin companies, and they are willing to fund what we do. That's what we're funded by, Bitcoiners and Bitcoin companies who care deeply about these issues, but in other parts of the world, they don't always have that and so we're really honored to be in a position to utilize some of our time and our energy to help parts of the world where they're just those resources just aren't available. 

Mike Peterson  
So yeah, I'd like to circle back to that and talk talk a little bit about the international but first, how do you go about you kind of decided you wanted to do this. How do you go about becoming an advocacy group? I mean, how do you get people, your first people, willing to listen to you? How? What were the steps that you took to make that happen? 

Dennis Porter  
It really was about coming up with a vision and a strategy, right? Because you can have a vision politically, and if you don't have a strategy, you won't be able to enact any of your vision or your mission. And so our strategy, combined with our vision and mission to make the United States the best place in the world to be a bitcoiner, to be a bitcoin miner, to hold Bitcoin but the strategy that back that up was to advance the cause at the state level. Most people want to go to the top, bottom, down. We go from the bottom and work upwards. We feel that that is a much more effective and is also a much more efficient use of our time and resources, because you could go to Washington, DC, you could light money on fire. You could be there for 10 years and get nothing done now, it's things are looking good now. But our sort of argument would be that part of the reason why we see all this positive momentum in Washington DC is because of the work of advocates at the lower levels working to push things up, showing that there's popular movements taking place, showing that it's politically popular to pass pro Bitcoin legislation into law. When lawmakers are trying to identify, you know, what are they going to do? What issues are they going to support? You know, they're politicians, so they're going to look around and say, okay, they passed this law over here, here and here and here, and, oh, this member of Congress is endorsing it. And, oh, that guy over there is endorsing it. Okay, there's, there's, there's, there's something to stand on here. Because I'm the funny part is, I'll hear from people who say, Oh, I've been a bitcoiner for, you know, seven, eight years as a lawmaker. Back in my mind, I'm always like I'm wondering why, what took them so long to come out and say that, and also to be to advocate, because when I hear them talk about it, I'm like, they clearly understand the technology, but it's, I think it's just that foundation of support that they know is going to be there for them. Because whether we like it or not, politicians are, you know, going to care about whether they get reelected, and they're not going to put their entire career on the line just for one issue. But now that there's all this positive momentum, things like right to mind passing in two states, we also had our Bitcoin rights bills passed into other states, and also that from there, the GOP adopted the language from those bills. The right to mind, the right to self custody, are now part of the GOP party platform. And then all of a sudden you see Trump endorsing it, and then you see, you know, Senator lum is coming over strategic Bitcoin reserve bill and Trump endorsing that there's just so much momentum, and that really was also very much captured by, of course, the overtake of Congress and the Trump, incoming Trump administration, where they're vouching and endorsing for this stuff. Now we're seeing this just like, I mean insane amount of momentum when i. Comes to getting legislation.

Mike Peterson  
So are people at the different state capitals more willing to listen to you now and have you come in and educate their staff?

Dennis Porter  
Absolutely, it was for a while. So when we launched, it was June of 2022. Is right in the middle of the FTX, SBF collapse. I mean, it was an absolute disaster out there where politicians didn't want to be tied to that at all. Yeah. So, like, we would get meetings. They were, they were kind enough to meet with us at times, not always, but at times they would be and sometimes they'd be like, aren't you guys? Like, isn't this, like, done? Like, didn't it? Like, all go away, isn't it all just, like, a fraud over isn't it Bitcoin dead? And so that was a very difficult time to to get people interested, but we were able to do it. You know, our team, everything from our policy director to our to our board to our my co founders, we're just very, very good at what we do. That's a very bunch of team effort, and we were able to convince some lawmakers to introduce and pass those pieces of legislation into law. But that was like a lot of outreach, a lot of resources put time and energy put into pushing it forward. Now we're getting lawmakers just like calling us, like, DMing me on Twitter and being like, hey, I want to introduce this legislation, and let's get this thing moving. Let's get it going. So it's a much different ballgame now than it was. 

Mike Peterson  
Makes it much more enjoyable and lot easier it is. I mean, we we face that, you know, obviously on a different scale. But even when we were rolling out things here in El Santa, getting the initial stores on board. You're, yeah, you're really pushing, like, quit calling me, trying to do this. But then once a few of them started, and they're successful, and then they're getting all these extra customers. Then the other stores that before were kind of like, didn't want to talk to us or calling us, Hey, okay, how do I start accepting bitcoin? How does this work? And so it's always, it's always great to be fielding the calls rather than placing them. 

Dennis Porter  
It is, and then it's, it's great to see the excitement too. Versus like, you know, when you're doing those initial outreaches is people are like, I don't know, and you're really trying to convince them. Now, it's just like, you know, super pumped, super excited, ready to introduce legislation. What's next? You know, is what they commonly say to us, what am I doing next? What's the next piece of legislation we can work on? And that's a big thing for us at Satoshi action that I think people also don't really have an appreciation for yet, because they haven't witnessed it in real time. We started with legislation that we felt was effective. Important. Protect the big protect Bitcoin, the access to Bitcoin for us, citizens and Americans and Americans and anybody that lives in the country, but now, because we're seeing so much positive momentum, we're moving away from some of this, like fundamental, foundational policy to truly innovative policies that we can really help us as a country to be able to appreciate and to unlock the true potential of Bitcoin. I would put some things like the strategic Bitcoin reserve right into that bucket. I mean, if we would have talked about that three years ago, people are like, you're insane. What are you talking about? We're not going to buy bitcoin and put it in the state treasury. But now states across the country, lawmakers across the country, want to do that, and not just across the country, across the world. 

Mike Peterson  
So how much of your time is spent advocating and trying to push politicians, and how much is just educating? Like, do they do they truly want to know and understand? Or do they just want to know how this is going to benefit them? Or what is, how does that work? What motivates them?

Dennis Porter  
It's a good question. I have a there's two different things that you can do. You can either orange pill someone, or what I call microdose someone. And a lot of politicians, we only get into a position to, you know, microdose them. So to speak, like I would say, most people's orange pill journey is a long period. It's not something that happens overnight. It's not something happens in a week, or even not really in a month. 

Mike Peterson  
It wasn't for me. So I we shouldn't expect that, you know, for most people, it was a journey. So we should expect that for, you know, politicians or whatever. I always tell people that about El Salvador, like, people like, oh, but people aren't using it like, overnight, and it's like, yeah, they're on a journey. This is their first cycle that they're in. They're being exposed. They're learning it's like these things don't happen overnight. 

Dennis Porter  
Exactly. And so the same thing with the politicians, elected officials, regulators, what? So what we do, instead of trying to be give people this, you know, huge orange pill, where it's a long process, really going deep on, we go, we stay pretty surface level, and we focus on the benefits of the technology. And that worked really, really well for us. If we get too philosophical, it just turns people off, because you only have such a short period of time to engage. And so we focus on how Bitcoin mining can balance the grid, how Bitcoin mining can create rural jobs, how it's good for green energy. We focus on how Bitcoin is good for the economy, and how you can be able to save with Bitcoin, give access to the people be and when I say that, I mean, like, it's an inclusive financial tool that's really appealing, especially, I think, to people on the left, Democrats, your favorite. And so we are always trying to give people that micro dose of what we think will appeal to them. And will help them to say, You know what? No, it's, let's do it. I mean, that's changed a little bit now, where people are like, just like, excited, do it. But in the beginning, it was a lot of education around, what can it do. We stayed away from the technical components of Bitcoin. We did not explain how Bitcoin works. That's just, that's, that's a recipe for disaster. I'm not a technical person either myself, so it's not a good combo, and we so we really focus on those benefits, drive those benefits home. And the good thing about that approach was, not only did it work, it was really easy to get the lawmaker to agree with us that they should adopt Bitcoin, because they go, oh yeah. I mean, I already know I want to balance my grid. I know I want to help people have an inclusive financial asset. Okay, yeah, that sounds great. Like maybe I misunderstood this technology, but you seem like you know much better than me about it, and, oh, you're doing this research and you're backing it up. Okay, great. Let's, let's give it a shot. And honestly, what I love about the state lawmakers is they're willing to take bigger risks with policy, like in DC, they're very risk averse, and they don't want to put their careers on the line because they're at the pinnacle, you know, you're at the bottom. You're like, Ah, screw it. Let's let's get a shot. 

Mike Peterson  
That's part of the beauty of of the state system, yeah, that we have is you can see how things work in one state versus another, and and have all these kind of sandboxes going on with things. So

Dennis Porter  
We call it the laboratory of democracy. You can try so many different things out you can innovate and you can figure out what the best solution is. So we certainly view trial and error as a part of our method to the madness. So to speak. Some people will look at what we're doing and they'll say, Well, that's too too busy, too chaotic. We just need to have one federal solution. But sometimes when you leave the federal government to its own devices, it will take a bunch of time, and it'll grind the bill down to a six out of 10. I've actually had members of Congress, their their staff, tell me this, if I could get you to agree that this bill is a six out of 10. You barely like it. I've done my job. They say that to me, because they they're just trying to get something across the finish line, because it's so hard to pass policy. And so what we like to do is we like to prove that bills can be an eight out of 10, a nine out of 10 and a 10 out of 10, and that we don't need to grind it down so people are barely happy enough to pass the legislation in order to get consensus. And that's really the problem in Washington, DC and the states give us an opportunity to do that and to be able to prove, you know, hey, this idea. It works, this strategic Bitcoin reserve idea. It works. This idea to protect self custody, this idea to protect peer to peer transaction. This is policy that works. It's popular. Representatives are voting in favor of it, and governors are signing it into law.

Mike Peterson  
So I want to revisit something that we've gotten into some discussions with on Twitter before. Is your view that that Bitcoin can be bipartisan? Because I I really don't think that that it can. I think that it goes against everything that the left wants. They want bigger government, they want more control. And if countries are to adopt a Bitcoin standard, it kind of takes that away from away from them. They can no longer just print money. They have to make it very clear to people the services they're receiving and how much it's costing them, rather than be able to hide that through inflation. So why would any Democrat agree to promote Bitcoin or think that it's a good thing?

Dennis Porter  
It's, honestly, it's a great question. I love, I love this topic because it reminds me of the early days when I was telling Bitcoiners that we should be politically engaged. And a lot of people are like, No, we should stay out of it. It doesn't make any sense. And so I like to visit this, this topic of like, how could it possibly be that Democrats would be supportive of Bitcoin because I, I I engage in these conversations on a regular basis. You know, I'm from Portland, Oregon. It's probably the most liberal city in the entire country, and I'm able to have conversations with not only advocates there people who care about Bitcoin, but also progressive and Democrat lawmakers as well. And the things that resonate with those lawmakers about Bitcoin are certainly different than conservatives. You know, conservatives sound money. It's freedom for Democrats, though, and progressives. It much more. It's much more in that line of how Bitcoin is a truly financially inclusive asset or tool or money, and that anybody anywhere in the world is able to use this technology regardless of race, regardless of sex or gender or religious beliefs, political beliefs or immigration status, even you have access to a financial tool no matter where you are. Yeah, and then.

Mike Peterson  
But are they willing to give up the government control to get that? Because I understand that, and that's where I A lot of times find myself more agreeing with people they're more liberal minded, because I care passionately about those ideas, but I find most liberals are not willing to give up the government control side, or the idea that government needs to be the one doing it, not individuals, that only government has that answer. That's

Dennis Porter  
yeah, of course. You know, I think in that. Side of the conversation, I would have to say that it just really depends on how much you think Bitcoin is going to like, destroy or take away the ability for the government to, you know, still have its own currency and utilize its own currency. I'm of the opinion that Bitcoin and the dollar, like, survive into the future for, like, a long for a long time, and but the primary reason is because I believe that Bitcoin will act as a check and balance against the dollar, and that it will help lawmakers to be more responsible, because the individuals now have the opportunity to exit that system if they feel like they're that system is being abused. So I, I guess it's when you say, are they willing to give that up for one it's going to happen either way. But, but, but on top of that, I just don't think they think that that is going to go away like they're not thinking they're they're replacing or sacrificing. And I will say again, too. Here is Democrats. There's a lot of Democrats. They don't necessarily like all the excess spending. They don't like all this. This is some fiscal irresponsibility. You know, it's much more popular on the right as a championed issue. But there are plenty of Democrats who say, Oh, I, you know, I'm actually much more of a libertarian, progressive, Libertarian, libertarian. I care more about people just being able to do whatever they want to do. And like, you know, just stay out of my business, right? So there's, there's a lot of political undercurrents that exist in the world that we don't always get to see because they don't get into power. As much and also beyond that. Both the left and the right like to characterize each other, and so what they'll do is they will say, Well, you know Elizabeth Warren, or you know someone else in the federal government who is really opposed to Bitcoin. They'll make them the caricature and say, Well, this is what all Democrats are like. And that's just not really true. Like, you can't characterize an entire political party, which is a huge I mean, these don't even Republicans, yeah, if you just break it down to, you know, conservatives versus moderate Republicans, they fight all the time. They they'll primary each other. They, they, some of them hate each other. They call them rhinos, right? You know, Republican name only. It's the same on the left, you have, you have progressives, and you have liberals, and then you have, you know, moderate Democrats, and they fight all the time too. And it's really just, I think the problem is that the people who have been winning in these parties a lot of times are the ones who are like, yeah, print more money. Because when you print more money, you're sort of allocating power to yourself. And then you you, you put yourself into power and say, I'm going to give you all these free things. And really, if we're being totally honest, both sides have really started to, I think, abuse the money printer extent, but, but it's not just the Democrats. It's the Democrats made it popular, that's for sure. Yeah.

Mike Peterson  
So what? When you when you're out there talking to politicians, though, I have to imagine that Republican politicians are much more receptive on average, than your average Democrat,

Dennis Porter  
Yes, but that's changing. And the reason, I think so, my explanation, at least my what I think is the reason why we see Republicans being the first ones to really, truly be on board with it is is a little bit of a history of who learned about the technology first and who advocated for it first. Because we saw, of course, Libertarians really jump on board with the technology first. And I think libertarians also learned that they can't win national elections very effectively or very consistently. So a lot of those libertarians, especially around the Ron Paul era, which is literally right around when Bitcoin was starting to get, you know, popular, I would say just, it's just a little bit past that era, they injected themselves into the Republican Party because they're like, well, we can't win elections, so let's go ally ourselves and inject ourselves into the party that we're most aligned with. Even some people in my own team. That's a, that's a, I would say that's a story for them. And they started to explain why Bitcoin matters to Republicans, but nobody was doing that for Democrats. And so I think Democrats have just been this. It's a big lagger behind libertarians and Republicans, because no one's out there saying, This is what's great about Bitcoin, and this is why you should like it, even those ideas of Bitcoin being money you can't discriminate with. Like, how often do you hear people saying that to Democrats? Not very often. But when they hear it, they go, Oh, well, I like that. Oh, it's you can't discriminate with it. You can bank in banking.

Mike Peterson  
I mean, I would say the historical Democrats, there was a lot of things I used to admire about the left, their advocacy for free speech. They're really being for the little guy, but I feel like the things I actually admired about the left, they've walked away from those now. They're the wealthy party of big business. They want to censor everything, and so do they still care about those things? Are there people in the party that still

Dennis Porter  
Absolutely, I mean, it's both sides, right? Like you see, you see parties change dramatically. You know, over time, there's been huge swings in which parties are the party of freedom and which parties are the ones like, you know, Republicans are traditionally the party that freed the slaves, right? And then all of a sudden, the Democrats are now the party of the African American community. So you see these, like, big you see these big switches over, like, who's owning an issue, and that's going to happen over and over again. And I think also, you know, parties will will become in there will become things that become problematic when part. Parties are, I would say gaining power over time for too long. I would say the left and progressives and even the far left have had a lot of progress over the last 20 years. I've actually told a lot of people I think that's switching. I think, I think conservatives and Republicans are very, very much in the driver's seat right now. And I think you see that globally. I don't think that's even just an American thing. Yeah. And so what's going to happen is almost like a, how would you make the comparison? 

Mike Peterson  
Like a pendulum swings so far to one side and then. 

Dennis Porter  
Yeah, that's exactly right. That's a good one too. But there's also like, in the what is it when, like a cell, when, when you start to lose your calories, your body goes on, it kills off the cells that are, like, not adding value, or the weaker cells. So if the So, if the left is going to go through that process here, I think you're going to see some of the more problematic policy positions of the left be shifted and be geared back towards to the middle. I think that that's very clear, that there was even an attempt to do that in this presidential election. A lot of people thought I was crazy. But if you looked at Kamala Harris's race very closely, even though she was, you know, her whole career, a progressive, Republicans would say she's far left in her campaign, she was saying things like, Well, her campaign slogan was freedom, right? When have you ever said her Democrats make a campaign slogan be freedom, let alone for the presidential election? And then she also said, I have a gun and I'll shoot someone if they come in my house. I've never heard Democrats say to have guns or they're going to shoot anyone. So I think there's an understanding on the left. And I talked to a lot of political commentators and people that are not popular, they're just sort of, I think, behind the scenes, very much influential when it comes to messaging and understanding, like, where things are going. And they are even and these people are like, super far left, yeah. They're like, the country is moving very far right, if we want any Democrat, progressive policies to be successful, we're going to have to recognize that and stop saying that, Oh, this is just some Trump is just a flash in the pan, or Trump is just some trend that's going to die. Like, no, this is a, this is a global shift, and that they need to start acknowledging that if they want to win elections. I think it might take a little bit of time, but there will be certainly. And I'm not going to pick which policy should come and which should go, but definitely, there are some policies within the Democrat Party, just like the Republican Party, that I think will shift over time and will improve the chances of Democrats to appeal to a broader audience. 

Mike Peterson  
So how much do you think Bitcoin played into this election, as far as the stances that people took was where you had Trump and then RFK, who obviously came on board with him, that were very pro, yeah, and Kamala, that was vague or indifferent. And she was at least vague or indifferent part of a party that was very anti. And you know, the anti Bitcoin army, and political crypto army. What did she call it, I don't know, 

Dennis Porter  
Anti crypto army. It was the Liz Warren ad. I would say that once this is what is a common this is what happens, is it's a characterization. You see Liz Warren, you see Joe Biden letting Liz Warren, kind of like run the show there. And then it becomes, oh, the Democrats are anti Bitcoin and crypto, which is, that's how people felt. But it really was, the vast majority of it was because of Liz Warren, yeah, so it's really more about just bad leadership. 

Mike Peterson  
But do you think that impacted the turnout for the election? 

Dennis Porter  
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was you had people messaging me. I had people messaging me all the time showing themselves, like getting voters together and saying, We're all gonna go. You know, these weren't people just being like, Oh, I'm gonna go get my neighbors together. There was, like, full blown advocacy, like projects that were developing sort of grassroots. They were like, were the crypto Trump bros going around, or the Bitcoin Trump bros going around get driving people to the boot, to the voter polls? So certainly, I do believe it had an impact. To what extent, I think we'll probably have to wait and see, do some data figure out what that was. But sorry, no, but this is just one quick point. I think that was important. I think the impact of not just Trump winning after he advocated for Bitcoin, but also people like Sherrod Brown, losing in Ohio, losing to Bernie Moreno, I think those things are what make people go, Oh, okay, wow. Like, this is a thing now, like, we need to recognize this voter block. We need to recognize this issue, because people can lose their whole election over I would, I would dare to say that Sherrod Brown lost his seat simply because of his opposition to Bitcoin and really crypto writ large. And the reason why I make that, that claim is because Sherrod Brown was the weak member of the, what I'd call Elizabeth Warren anti crypto army. But he's very powerful, very powerful. He was a chair of Senate Banking, and he was on, on his way to winning another election. All the betting odds had him winning, and then all the sudden, Ohio. Yes, Ohio, but the crypto industry writ large, because I'm not going to say it was Bitcoin only, but the crypto industry at large put $200 million into that race to oppose him, and gave Bernie Moreno the the juice that he needed to be able to be successful. I think combined, of course, with the the political dynamics with Trump and Ohio was swinging. Little bit more to the right, but that was what really made a difference. And so now lawmakers are going, Oh, wow, if I'm join Elizabeth Warren's anti crypto army, people are gonna put $200 million into a race to oppose me. Or if I'm super pro and I try to take out someone that's anti crypto or anti Bitcoin, they will put $200 million to my side. So it's like a $400 million spread. Yeah, lawmakers are not stupid. They're, they're they're, ultimately, these are politicians who want to keep their jobs. They're going to look at that and go, actually, this next time I think, I'm going to either keep my mouth shut or I'm going to endorse this technology so that I can get the support that you know 

Mike Peterson  
and have you I know there's going to be, there's been a lot of I backstabbing, and, you know, accusations on what caused this loss during this time. But do you think Democrats are really reflecting deeply, and do you think this is something that's going to reverberate with them, that they'll come out of this with that lesson of, hey, we need to be on the right side next time. Or do you think most of them?

Dennis Porter  
It's a, it's a data point. You know, it's not No one. No one just has I think it's a strong data point. I don't think it's the only thing. What'll what it will, what it will do is it will open up the doorway now for people like myself and others who are spending the time advocating for Bitcoin, whether it be at the state level or Washington DC to get the ear.

Mike Peterson  
They'll be more open now, like, let's at least hear them out. 

Dennis Porter  
It's not like they're gonna wake up and be like, Well, I'm pro Bitcoin now, yeah. So, so certainly it's a strong data point to go, oh wow. Sherry brown just got obliterated. And there were other members of Congress that won their races who were very pro Bitcoin. Dave da McCormick in Pennsylvania, won his Senate race. He was not expected to win. He's very pro Bitcoin, and we helped him to go see a Bitcoin mining site, the frontier, frontier mining. And they managed that site out there was previously stronghold, but then stronghold, you know, sold it to bitfarm, so But needless to say, there's a now. There's this Congress, which is just like filled with pro Bitcoin people. I think it's, I don't know if it's a majority, but it's on the cusp of being a majority of members of Congress. Think it's 250 and there's what 538 in total. So pretty close.

Mike Peterson  
Wow. So you had mentioned early on that you guys are starting to field calls internationally, is that from people that are like, they want to advocate within their own government, or is that people that are in government that want to figure out, like, oh, man, first we saw El Salvador, and now it looks like the US is, like, all aboard the Bitcoin train, like we need to figure out where we fit in here, or what is, what's kind of motivating them? 

Dennis Porter  
Yeah, I mean, it's, there's so to answer the first question, it is not only advocates. There's tons of different groups out there, all over the country, all over the world, I should say that are somewhat similar to how we approach it. Some are associations where it's more of an industry thing, and then some are focused on just true advocacy. But definitely those groups are reaching out. But beyond that, we have lawmakers in countries all across the world that are now saying, Wow, okay, like this is what's happening in the US. As you said, I should do something here. I want to make, I want to stake my claim on this issue before the opportunity is gone to make a difference, not only for my country, but of course, you know, as a politician, you're always looking for ways to it's your job, your representative. You're looking for issues that are go, okay, that's that's that's gaining ground. That's the right way to go. I'm gonna just get right ahead of the curve, and I'm gonna be able 

Mike Peterson  
to reading the tea leaves of, yes, okay, I can be in the right skate where the puck going, and that's my favorite saying.

Dennis Porter  
So, yeah. So they're just like, you know, they're, they're, they're helping their people, but it's also helping their career. And that's also one of the things I really love about Bitcoin is it tends to be that you can do good for the world and it can be good for you also at the same time, like usually we see in a lot of nonprofit activity. I mean, my parents are in this world, been a nonprofit world. I lived, I even lived in Mexico for three years with them doing nonprofit work. Usually, when you're out there doing nonprofit work, it's more about other people. But when you're advocating for Bitcoin, I don't know what it is, whether it's economic value, it's economic value, what could become totally different. It tends to return a lot of value to you. I'm sure you could, you know, speak on this a little bit when you advocate for Bitcoin, when you advance Bitcoin, it brings a lot of I don't know what any other word is, then value. It brings a lot of opportunity to you. It brings it advances your life in ways that you can not even really probably have imagined when you first got started. And so politicians are are benefiting personally when they advocate, and their countries are benefiting. And we're having those conversations with lawmakers across the world. I don't Is this? Is this? Is this live, live, or is it so there, there are there. We're in contact with seven different countries right now, lawmakers in seven different countries who are ready to introduce legislation, I can't say we haven't nailed down on specifically what they want to do. Everyone's very interested in the strategic Bitcoin reserve idea. And then there are, you know, state lawmakers in the US doing that same thing. It's like, 

Mike Peterson  
so what's driving their their motivation? They just feel like, hey. If the US is going to go this way, we want to be a step ahead, is it? Or that's competition? 

Dennis Porter  
Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, definitely. I mean, they're the lawmakers compete. They're always competing with each other. They're always countries are competing. You know, they're essentially like businesses to an extent, and they want to attract the business and the opportunity to themselves. But again, it's also just, you know, Bitcoin is also going through the roof right now. What do we like? We might be over 90,000 right now. I'm not sure. I haven't looked at my phone in a second, but we were at 89,000 when we came in this room. That is also people are seeing the hype there. And then, I think it's a last cycle. Was a lot of people's first time being exposed to this stuff, especially in the political world. So the fact that it's come back, and it's raging back into popularity there, people are starting to catch on that, like, this is not going away. I better start staking my claim on this opportunity before other people do

Mike Peterson  
Yeah, like you're saying, after FTX, they thought, oh, it's done, it's over. But the fact that it's resurrected and stronger than ever, they starting to realize that, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Are you seeing any trends on like, what regions of the world the countries are interested? Are you seeing it more from developed countries or third world, developing countries, or what's or is it kind of across the board? 

Dennis Porter  
It is across the board. It is across the board. Definitely, we see global south happening. I would say predominantly for me, in that situation, it is the Latin American countries that I have seen some major progress in. But also there's European countries in that, in that mix as well. So there's definitely, I mean us is what the most, theoretically, the most developed country in the world, at least the most powerful, and they're doing it. So if they're doing it, then it sort of opens the, it opens the gateway for, really, any lawmaker in the entire planet to do it. And the best part is, is that so there's a lot of things that are coming together at the same time, which is that US is bigly endorsing it, going all out on it right now. Hopefully we can secure some major wins over the next several years, but because we as an organization have the track record of introducing and passing legislation into law, and then we have all this academic research we've done, peer reviewed research we've done it puts us in a position when we reach out to people and they'll say things like, oh my gosh, you're this is exactly who I've been looking for. I've been waiting to find someone like you because I don't really know what I'm doing. You know, senators, they got whole teams, right? They've got 3040, 50, sometimes, if they're in leadership, even more staff members, and they can direct people to go focus on this issue, state lawmakers and lawmakers in smaller countries or less developed countries, even even some well off countries, they don't have the resources that a US senator might have, like Senator Lummis has a whole team. She has multiple people on our team that are like very good on Bitcoin and digital asset policy. You go to anywhere else. The vast majority of lawmakers don't have access to those types of staff members or resources. And so when we can come in as a third party and step in and say, We will be the the group that helps you get this stuff across the finish line, they are just like, thank you. Like, huge open door. Like, please help me. And we will bring and deliver one pagers. Will bring the research, we'll bring model policy, and we will fly. We'll show up, we'll testify, we will get on calls. We will go do educational, you know, Lunch and Learns with the lawmakers there. We'll be doing one on one meetings with with members, before the committee hearing. So it's there's a lot of work that goes into it, and so that's why, oftentimes, on new issues, lawmakers won't, won't take on the new issue, because they don't. They can't do all that. Yeah, so when we say, come in and say, we'll do it for you. It's my full time job, they're like, Yes, please. Like, let's go. Let's we can move really fast with this. And it gives them the confidence to move forward on an issue that they might not, they know that they want to do, but they might not have the confidence to do.

Mike Peterson  
And is it, from my understanding, the majority of this work happens with with staffers that most of the people that are officially in the roles the senators or the representatives, they're spending most of their time just dialing for dollars, trying to fundraise and do that, and their staff is the one that develops most of the policy is, is that what you found, or do you find in this space, that there are actual politicians that are personally vested and and want to dive into the details,

Dennis Porter  
Only someone who has political experience would know that that that's the case most of the time. That's that's a great question. Certainly, there is a lot of times where the staff does the vast majority of the work. So it's a great question. But we do in those places where there is not the resources to hire staff. I mean, some of these state lawmakers are basically volunteers. They're unpaid volunteers, part time. So if they're like, not the ones from California, no, no, yeah, they do California, New York, Texas, all the big, you know, Florida, all the big states, they they certainly have the resources. But the smaller states and the smaller countries, they don't have resources for staff. Sometimes they maybe have a little bit of money for staff, but they'll share the staff. So there's just a very significant limitation on bandwidth. And so we will, we'll work directly with the lawmaker all the way through the process like there's nobody, there's no staff in the way, as far as you. Having the progress move forward and so but if you go to Washington, DC, yeah, I mean, you're not, you're not really working with lawmakers too often directly. You'll do the little meetings and the meet and greets and the cameras and the photo ops, but that's really what those lawmakers when they're at the pinnacle of their career, that's what it becomes. It's much more of a they're the front or the face of their office, whereas the staff is the one doing the vast majority of the work. We often say in Washington, DC and other major countries, the staff, the staff rules the world, or the staff rules Washington DC, because they, if they don't, if the staff doesn't like it, you're Yeah, you're screwed. 

Mike Peterson  
yeah, they'll just they set the calendars, yeah. So definitely got to have the staff on. 

Dennis Porter  
I always tell people, be very nice to the staff if you, if you ever get a chance to interact with them, because they're the ones, like you said, setting the calendar. They're the one they can. They can. Basically, I've had staff tell me, they're like, Oh, I've killed legislation because my boss wanted to do it, but I didn't want to do it, so, yeah, just slow rolled it until it died. All right, good to know.

Mike Peterson  
So do you think that a strategic reserve is a good thing, because I have very mixed feelings on that, especially at the federal level. I like the idea more at the state level, where you have the states competing with each other. At the federal level, I feel like it obviously the government can't co opt Bitcoin because of the way it's designed, and so I don't have those fears. And in some sense, it's admitting that they've lost and over time, we'll have to give up the printing press. But I still have a general unease about seeing governments accumulate large amounts of Bitcoin. So curious to your take.

Dennis Porter  
I've always had the position that when someone owns Bitcoin, they become a ally to Bitcoin, and that once you become an ally to Bitcoin, once you're on the Bitcoin network, that you will point resources towards protecting and advancing Bitcoin. And so I've just That's my the my general under underlying thesis, I do appreciate the fears around or the concerns around governments using their position in the Bitcoin space to subvert maybe it could be, potentially development. It could be, I think the more valid concern is like, are we gonna just say, Okay, well, we're gonna own Bitcoin now. Let's just go criminalize everybody and take their Bitcoin. I think that's like a legitimate concern, and that's why, also we, at Satoshi action really deeply care about protecting the right to self custody. So it's a bucket of policy. If you just have a policy that's like, well, all the criminal bitcoin is going to go into our wallet, which that's pretty much what every government wants to do. That's what every policymaker wants to do with when it comes to this stuff. And it's actually not that irrational to say, well, let's just have them keep the Bitcoin that they do compensate confiscate. But then it's like, well, let's just, you're the theory. Well, the government's gonna, this is great. This is working out. Great. The confidence getting along. 

Mike Peterson  
We've seen that with, what do they call it, with the asset forfeiture law, where they can, you know, then you have all these people that just take people's money, even though they know that it wasn't illegitimate. But they, they have that kind of they have to, the people have to prove themselves. So we've had that,

Dennis Porter  
There's, there was actually, I, we've, haven't made much progress on it yet. We're, I'm very interested in that type of stuff. I, I'm, I'm keenly aware of the need to protect from civil asset forfeiture. Yeah, that's, sorry, that's what I was trying to get at, and to make sure that you can't just, you know, take someone's Bitcoin from them and without due process. I mean, at the end of the day, due process has to still matter. If you're in a country where due process doesn't matter, and it's like, well, I mean, this just there's nothing you can do about it. But in the US, due process matters, and we want to make sure that we also don't allow civil asset forfeiture to someone just to look in the car and say, Well, you got some bitcoin there, and you got a gun there, and I think you were over there earlier. I think I think I might have saw you at where we thought a crime might have taken place. So we're going to take your Bitcoin that is theoretically could happen. But there is a lot of efforts underway, not within the Bitcoin space necessarily, but just writ large, where there are people who fight back against that type of behavior and who want to ban any type of civil asset forfeiture. I'm very supportive of those. 

Mike Peterson  
Yeah. No, me too. That's yeah. We've talked to those people. We've seen that they can do that. 

Dennis Porter  
We've We've told those people, we want you to add Bitcoin into that, that movement we you know, if someone finds cash in your car and you're trying to protect that from being forfeited by these groups that do these types of legal this, they're like a Legal Group, essentially trying to remember the name of them right now, maybe it'll come to be but they they protect against those forfeitures. We think the same thing should be true. If someone finds a seed phrase like, you can't just go in and take people's stuff like it should, should not be allowed.

Mike Peterson  
So what? What is the issue that you are most focused on for this next year? Is there one single issue that you think is vital and important that that legislations pass, whether it's at the state level or the federal level.

Dennis Porter  
I mean, it's a mixture of, there's what I always tell lawmakers as I say, there's the exciting policy, strategic Bitcoin reserve that everybody's talking about it. Everybody wants to do it, but we should also keep our eye on the ball when it comes to securing like foundational wins. So don't just get distracted with the big, shiny office. Object, like, yeah. Like, go, go, do it. But if you really want to make progress for the issue, you should also be carrying a lot about just getting the definitions in place, like the most basic form of legislation, like, make sure the definitions are in place. So we actually know what we're talking about when it comes to Bitcoin, in the code book and in the law book in these states, and then from there, it's, you know, protecting the right to access the technology, making sure people can can access it. There's some other really interesting policy innovations out there. People are talking about, I like this idea of, you know, working with the pensions so the pensions can buy. We've been working with state treasurers for that type of work. But really, at the end of the day, it's, I think that I were, I worry about access the most. So I always want lawmakers to protect access, but I also want to make sure lawmakers are pursuing the policy initiatives that they find valuable, because that's the stuff they're going to fight for. Like, if I try to convince someone to do a policy that they're not interested in, then they're not going to get up on the on the, you know, they're not going to get up and testify and say, This is why we need to to do this. They're not going to convince their fellow lawmakers that they need to pursue that policy initiative. They're not going to risk their political capital on it. So for us, it's really just finding what they care a lot about. Fortunately, it's that's not difficult right now to convince people to do some of the more I wouldn't. Let's see more innovative, more cutting edge, so to speak, policies like strategic Bitcoin reserve, yeah, I guess, I guess, for me, it's, it's just what's the most innovative thing that you could do? And then let's also focus on those basics that you could get done as well.

Mike Peterson  
Are you seeing any movement? And maybe, maybe because you work mostly at the state level, this wouldn't be relevant. But the the movement to treat Bitcoin as money, so that there's the capital Kane's tax issue goes away, so that when people spend Bitcoin, they don't have this accounting nightmare that they have to

Dennis Porter  
I personally am a big fan of that. I think it's, it's around the corner, so to speak, like it's, it's like, beyond the Overton window right now, but just by a little bit, people have continued to ask me that, like, Well, why aren't we doing it's more important that we do this. And I can see that. I can see why people would feel that it is more important. But sometimes it's just about doing what's possible than it is about what's like the most important way to unlock Bitcoin. Because, yeah, if we, if we band cap gains on Bitcoin, which I just tweeted that out like yesterday, then then that's huge, because you don't have to go through these accounting nightmares. I mean, I don't, I think the vast majority of people just don't spend Bitcoin because it's because of the tax implications. It's, it's a night nightmare to track it. Yeah, it's, it's, so I'm very I used to fight for legal tender here in the United States, until that became a bridge too far. But the main reason why I really fought for it was because I wanted to get rid of capital gains. And so we're always exploring other ways to do that. We have tried. It's been very difficult. We haven't done it successfully yet to do de minimis exemptions. So $200 de minimis, if you spend below 200 you can not pay capital gains on your Bitcoin transaction. I like that type of work. Policy isn't always about going for the whole, you know, yeah, the big the it's like throwing for touchdowns at the one yard line, right? Like, it's like, you just don't do that, like you need a way at it. You move the ball down the line, and you make progress, and then then you feel when you get to the 20 or the 30 yard line, that's when you start taking shots at the end zone. Same thing with policy. So that's why I like the idea of doing, like a de minimis incremental increases. We do our de minimis pegged to inflation too. So it's not like you can, you know, like the SBA with the $10,000 money thing that was a lot of money back in the day to have to report. Now it's like nothing like, you know, I think they did the equivalent. It's like $80,000 or $90,000 equivalent. So same thing. We want to make sure that doesn't happen with the de minimis exemption, so it's pegged to inflation, but I do like that policy vertical. I do want to spend more time on it. I don't see it happening now, but that could change very rapidly. 

Mike Peterson  
Is there anything else you want to cover? And obviously at the end, we want to make sure people know how they can support your work and and the organization. But is there anything else that we haven't covered that?

Dennis Porter  
Well, there's big there's big news coming tomorrow. So

Mike Peterson  
breaking news, Dennis, breaking news, 

Dennis Porter  
Big breaking, maybe huge. Breaking, yes, definitely some big news coming out tomorrow, and I'm very excited about it. We can talk a little bit a little bit more about it at the end here, but the state of Pennsylvania is going to be introducing legislation. Introducing legislation to make Bitcoin strategic Bitcoin reserve in the state. We've been working really hard to make progress on this vertical. We believe that it's critical that these states do create strategic Bitcoin reserves, and that we use that momentum that's created by that to get not just the United States but the world, to do it. This is going to be the first of its kind policy here in America. But it's not just this state that's going to be pursuing this. There are actually multiple states that we're lining up in the beginning of 2025 the 2025 legislative cycle starts in January. You know, the state cycles, they don't go year round. Most of them. California is one that's year round, but most of them are not year round, but we're 40. To be working with a lawmaker in Pennsylvania who is very interested in moving Bitcoin forward. He was the one who helped us introduce legislation to protect Bitcoin rights in the state. And he is, you know, he just rang us up. He's like, let's, let's do it. Like, let's, let's, let's make progress on this issue. We were fortunate to pass that bill in the House for Bitcoin rights in Pennsylvania, and we're looking forward to, it's a, you know, it's the end of the year, so it's going to be close, but we're looking forward to, hopefully getting it passed in the House and then out of the Senate by the end of 20 

Mike Peterson  
what would that look like, just in the nuts and bolts? Practical level, like a certain percentage of tax income would flow into Bitcoin, 

Dennis Porter  
up to 10% of the Treasury for other states, it'll be like their permanent fund. So any fund where they're able to hold assets, okay, we want to make it so that they can put up to 10% of that in Bitcoin.

Mike Peterson  
And I actually don't know how that works right now. Are there states now, did they hold, like, some of their funds in, like, stocks? Yes, some other things,

Dennis Porter  
and they have, like the the treasurers, depends on the state, but they different states manage them differently. But yeah, there are certainly treasuries that hold different types of assets. Most of the times it's like bonds, it's very it's very de risk stuff. So we think that not only they so gold and silver too, really common, Big Gold and Silver movement, like in this country, saying we should add Bitcoin, or, excuse me, we should add gold and silver to the Treasury. Sound money. We have also partnered with groups that are working on those types of things to say, well, let's make Bitcoin. Let's do it all together, silver, gold, Bitcoin. So there will be legislation in that regard, which will be coming out in 2025 as well. So there's a lot of different ways to do it. Our goal is always to find the way to get it across the finish line. So some of this legislation will be crafted differently. Some of it will be more targeted, to be to be Bitcoin specific. Some will be less specific with the hope and the, probably the belief, that they're not going to add anything else in there other than Bitcoin, like, why would you add? You're not going to add, like, a Dogecoin treasury, so to speak. So there's different ways that we'll approach the legislation, but ultimately, at the end of the day, it gives these states the ability to add Bitcoin to their treasury and to create a reserve for themselves.

Mike Peterson  
And do you see the biggest benefit of that as that it's going to be more demand for Bitcoin in this or is it more it just aligns the interest that now these states will be pro Bitcoin just because they hold it on their own. But,

Dennis Porter  
I mean, listen, like state, some of these states have very big funds. I was just talking to a lawmaker, a brand new senator, who wants to introduce this legislation as part of his like entry to the to his office, and they have a $55 billion permanent fund. And it's not Alaska. Alaska is even bigger than that. So this, these, these movements, if they actually add, you know, 10% it's not, it's not a non trivial number can make price impacts, for sure. But at the end of the day, I think it's also, again, it's more of a an alliance. It's an it's, it's, it's an alignment with Bitcoin, just like how, you know, people were worrying about Blackrock being pro Bitcoins, like, well, black. Now the black rocks pro Bitcoin. Has Bitcoin. They're going to deploy resources. Have deployed resources to advance Bitcoin. I think the same thing will happen with the states and then. And then it's like off to the races with how innovative we can be with policy. 

Mike Peterson  
Well, it'd be very interesting. As you'd see, the states that are pro Bitcoin would start to be in a very different financial situation to those that that don't engage and so you would have, yeah, states that you know literally could buy out another state, yeah, some point. So,

Dennis Porter  
I mean, I hate to use that. What's that trope? It's like some states are going to get poor or something like that, and while the other states are going to get rich. But yeah, that's going to be interesting to see how it how it plays out. Ultimately, what we really want these states to do is we want them to see this as a tool to increase their financial stability and to de risk themselves, and also to give them a pathway and an escape valve from the money printer as well. I mean, it's, you know, the federal government is the only one who can have a money printer. Yeah, like these states don't have money printers. They can't have money printers, and so Bitcoin is a way for them to also exit that system and protect themselves from runaway debasement.

Mike Peterson  
Interesting. Well, tell people how they can support your work, how they can get involved. I don't know if you guys have volunteers on your staff, Bitcoiners that want to be involved in this, or if it's just financial donations, but how can people support what you guys are doing, and how can they follow you

Dennis Porter  
Definitely. So if you want to support the work that we're doing, you can go to Satoshi action.io we are accepting donations in Bitcoin and in dollars, and you can also sign up for our newsletter there. We're very heavy on Twitter. I'm at Dennis underscore, underscore Porter. And also, we have Satoshi act fund as one of our handles as well. So or, you know, just type Dennis Porter or Satoshi Action Fund in the top, it'll pop up and people can follow us there. We put out a lot of our news on on Twitter, so people will be able to follow the work that we're doing

Mike Peterson  
Awesome. Well, Dennis, I'm glad we finally got you down here to El Salvador. 

Dennis Porter  
Yeah, you can't make fun of me anymore. No, well, actually, 

Mike Peterson  
I'll still make fun. You, but for different things, yeah, it's

Dennis Porter  
a different it'll be a running joke, I'm sure, until, until all time. 

Mike Peterson  
So we'll have to. I hope you enjoy the conference this week, and that you realize this is Bitcoin country. Texas is not Bitcoin countries. 

Dennis Porter  
No, no. We can have multiple Bitcoins, but again, it will always be the first. We can never take that away from you.

Mike Peterson  
All right, well, we'll let you go join your parents. I think they're waiting on you for dinner. Yeah, it's time for some food. I gotta have papusas. That's what I've heard you definitely have to have purposes, right? 

Dennis Porter  
Thanks, Mike.

Mike Peterson  
Thanks. Bye.