The History of Bitcoin Magazine & How El Salvador Gets the Power of the Bitcoin Brand | Mike Germano

Live from Bitcoin Beach in El Zonte, El Salvador, where I have the pleasure of hosting Mike Germano, President of Bitcoin Magazine, to talk about the remarkable influence of Bitcoin in El Salvador, especially during the Bitcoin halving 2024. We explore the cultural and social dimensions of Bitcoin and how it has reshaped his family's outlook on it. 

Mike sheds light on the hurdles and triumphs of operating a media company in today's digital era, particularly one that's centered on Bitcoin. He highlights the role of Bitcoin Magazine in the Bitcoin ecosystem, emphasizing its commitment to investigative journalism, education, and community engagement through conferences within the Bitcoin space.

We delve into the importance of community and marketing in promoting Bitcoin's adoption and understanding globally. Find out about the cultural importance of the Bitcoin logo, its use in a range of merchandise and initiatives, and how it has emerged as a symbol of a worldwide movement.

Join us and discover how Bitcoin can drive economic empowerment and financial inclusion while building a strong sense of community.

-Mike


Find out more about Mike and Bitcoin Magazine:
https://twitter.com/mikegermano
https://twitter.com/bitcoinmagazine
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/


Support and follow Bitcoin Beach:
https://twitter.com/Bitcoinbeach
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Web: https://www.bitcoinbeach.com/

Live From Bitcoin Beach

Transcript

0:49

So we got Mike president of Bitcoin magazine here to talk about the new line of Bitcoin beach ordinals that we're launching today. Obviously joking but excited to have Mike and his family joining us here for the Bitcoin halving week. We're I guess a couple of weeks early technically but it's a lot of fun in El Salvador seeing Bitcoiners from around the world come down. And it's fun to meet your your wife and kids and see how much they love El Salvador already. Yeah. I think that's really a great way to kind of cause a lot of problems for me my family that take us to a beautiful place, meet some beautiful people, have my kids think that this is what bitcoins like all over the world. And then had them keep asking for me to come back. This was really a plan for you just to force me to have to keep coming back. Well you say your son earlier he already said so next time we come back we're staying here. It's already locked in. It's wonderful. Yeah, no look. There having party in El Salvador once I saw that I thought now it was impressive and exciting that I wanted to be part of it. But you happen to time perfectly for my kids spring break. My wife was asking, she's like, well ours kids off school they just pull them out and I was like oh no she's like how do you not ask these things? And like those are those are not man things. Spring break happened and it was funny because Roman convinced my wife at the last conference that kind of come down to El Salvador. It's like,great you should come down and he was you know he was he was he was slinging it hard. And then all of a sudden, I think we decide. Okay my wife said we should do that for spring break and lined up with the having pars. Like yes perfect, so it was the family makes a perfect excuse for you to do things. So I'm happy where I'm happy to hear thank you for letting us stay and we're excited for our time here in El Zonte before the party. What's fun, it's been fun for me even you know. Picking you guys up from the airport and hearing some of the history of Bitcoin magazine and the conference things that I didn't realize. So first I'd love for you to give people a bit about your history and kind of unique way you came into the Bitcoin space and we were talking about earlier how a lot of people underestimate how important the narrative and the marketing aspect of Bitcoin is. So, would love to have you speak to that? Sure. It's always fascinating here I guess Bitcoiners like to tell why they got to Bitcoin, right? And I think I'd rather to like, well, I got to Bitcoin magazine and, you know, I think I had a unique life growing up where as building websites. You know like enjoy doing that build community websites built the first social media agency when social media supposed to be a way to connect people and even worse, before they even was dumb enough to run for public office and use Facebook to get elected because I was gonna, like, gonna really help, like, really do some good. And I even made the mistake of trying to bring transparency and I put a GPS and all the union cars to show where they were. And man nothing pisses off a bunch of Democrats in Connecticut then putting GPS and all their union car. So I lasted one term of office but you know, I was proud of it. I didn't kind of back down from some of those things. I think they were right and they turned out to be right and you know once again kind of running that election proved that social media thing was gonna be a big thing. Credit first agency for that loved it built it grew that as an exciting company and then I remember, early in our company. One of our guys our CTO was building this thing called Venmo and I remember like this is gonna be big. And he would work three days for me and the other four days like him and his co founder of Venmo would kind of build in our office and we really saw the value of not just that's where it kind of started to look. Learn into a little bit of like how actually money's transferred. Just seeing where the fights were happening, the bank was kind of interesting insight there. Are there were probably having all issues with how they deal with all the regulation moving money around? Absolutely right? Like, what problem are they solving for, right? And so it was kind of fun to actually just watch them build that was building our business at a time which we were excited. I was proud to build a business. I take entrepreneurship very seriously. I think it's a path everyone talks about freedom and sovereignty. Like be your own boss you know like then you know its sovereignty. It's really about it's not everyone thinks it's so wonderfully and sound so great. It's like okay you gotta be accountable for everything. So, you know I remember just starting a business and you pay all your employees first and you pay yourself last, right? You're like, oh shit man. I got no moneywhat am I doing here? I'm working a hundred hours so I can get paid zero. But look I built that company up it was exciting to work with some of the biggest brands in the world which I enjoyed doing. I liked marketing. It was great storytelling and you know had a tech side of our company and had kind of that agency side of our company. Ended up selling to a chemical vice media as a big fan at the time. Love their storytelling thought no one told better stories, and they did. It was fascinating, they were also based in New York and think they were mad that we sold to other that we were helping other media companies grow. You know, everyone from kind of like the Netflix to Major League baseball.com And, I think the onion Adult Swim were helping media companies, we loved it and I think they tried to, like get in a bar fight with us and advice is very Brooklyn, but we end up selling our company then, that time it was great. So did that, in fact, 2014, 2013, and when I was there, ran into David Bailey and the folks over. So did you to with vice and what was you role? Yeah sure. So I was the Chief Digital Officer. So vice obviously was getting a part of it was the growth of our digital presence. How the media was then distributed monetized and partnerships. So you know, at the time we I think we're doing some pretty groundbreaking stuff, you look at what happened with YouTube. You know, when they were saying, just put little clips and vice was the first day let's do like 10 minute long videos. Like, here's a video of us going to shy rack, take acid and go to the dog show, which I thought was always still one of my favorite videos. And then once again, if you do in partnership with Snapchat the time this is kind of where the I think the media company the platforms are really trying to fight for original content. So it's an exciting time, continue to kind of build that did that for four years. But when I was there, I ran into David Bailey in the BTC team. And folks were kind of working on Bitcoin magazine everything else that we're working on, and I kind of fell in love with it. Are you already a Bitcoin at that point? Yeah, I mean I hate always telling the story. Like you buy bitcoin to buy drugs originally, but that's like the everyone who doesn't tell you that story is a liar. So, I'm especially working advice. It's kind of like move and vice had report on Bitcoin really early on. But I think I was laughed at like the best financial decision I ever made was trying to buy drugs and fuck it up and so my mom really hates hearing that. But did not obviously appreciate Bitcoin and originally you know, once again. I had a lot of financial security. I lived in the US, I was great. So, you and Peter McCormick have all these parallels like both on the marketing side you both got into it because you're trying to buy drugs? It sounds cringy, but you know, I think, even worse actually. Was I just saw my company in 2013. You know like, you're pouring and you start everyone said you were wrong and I know what I'm doing, I'm so smart look at me and I was like, kids in the school like financial money manager. I don't trust you, you cheat on the test. You know I was arrogant. The funny thing is that if I never sell my company. I would be much better of in Bitcoin because I would been like, I would say, I figured this whole thing out. I'm so smart. In reality the worse financially ever did was kind to think I was smart. And so, I enjoyed Vice, it was the global company, it was one of the media biggest company in the world. At the point, it was really groundbreaking in. It's so funny aside on that. They came down and did a story on the Bitcoin beach project did really early on. They were one of the first that did like a full feature video. I wasn't here at the time, I was they did a feature with me but they went to my place in the US to do it. But Romane was filming on his phone while they were filming the Ministry of Tourism and they just happened to run into her I think was at a surf event or something and they started asking her about Bitcoin. And she was like, before when we had talked to her, she was always been kind of like you know, would change the subject or when and she starts talking like, No, we think bitcoins very positive and I was like, wait, wait, something's going on there. Like, something's gotten shaken up in the government. There's no way that she's doing this on her own she must have got the word that you know Bitcoin is something that government is going to do something with. Yeah, so that was kind of funny. How vice was the one that uncovered that for me. And then, that's good to hear for you. But on the reverse. Vice covered Bitcoin all the time is like being this really cool way and to purchase things and freedom and then of course when I started working for the company. When Vice came to report on the Bitcoin conference in 2021. The reporter had I think seven masks on, like wouldn't walk inside. That's like Twenty tresspasses and like one article came out saying like, people are gonna die, and we're so sad and this is wrong. And I was like well why is you really lost the fucking script there? You know. So, you're not the one that made vice woke. You weren't? I don't know, if some people might think I don't know. But yeah, I mean, you go broken. I went broke too, because I and a lot of stock advice for someone coming. I'm so sucked for me. But you know, yeah, look, I think they lost their way a little bit. And that can happen to media companies can lose their way, and it's a disaster. Do you think that usually happens from the top? Or do you think what I've seen is a lot of these companies, it seems that happens from the bottom up in the middle. Or a lot of times that the people are pushing, and the people that pop, just don't want to deal with it. So, they just placate them and say, yeah, fine, report on that that way. Or what's your take on it? Man, I feel like you're setting you up for a trap here. I'm not talking about Bitcoin magazine. I'm talking about just in general. No. So from my work with media companies, I've seen some, I've seen some great ones. I've seen some, you know, there's the startups. I think I build buzz feeds first like iPad app back in the day. Like, I remember Jonah Peretti, I was like, in and you build something for the onion, I remember that. And what ends up happening for these, you know, special for the some companies is you can be nimble. And the people that are working on it are so connected to what's actually happening. That they're actually part of that culture that they're reporting on. And the problem is, as you get bigger, people expect you to whether that's been more commercial or more professional. Or you try to bring in people who've done it before they get removed from the culture that they're reporting on and so you know, that grasp isn't there. Didn't grow up in it, it's not trained in their DNA? But then the cost of it, it actually produce all the content. Just ballooned to a point where then all of a sudden, you know, once again. If you have people are passionate about the space and the writing and they're contributing you can keep costs kind of low. Because, it's something that they want to work on. And now, we gotta get some more professionals because we're trying to get to the next level and then the costs come up, and even more costs come up, get later on. As you know some of us want a business, it can balloon. So now you're looking at the amount of money you have to make to become profitable is so large. And then once again, it could be it could be mistakes made by the people in charge about what they want to do and how to monetize it and that's always been a problem. I mean, like we're looking at what I find interesting with Bitcoiners is they will sit down and analyze Bitcoin to the 1/100 of a penny of when to buy and arbitrage and how to get electricity from data from mining like. But no one will ever have a conversation about where they get their content from and how its monetized, right? Like that's like, media grows on trees, it should just happen and no one should make money on anything with that, right? But everything else is about money. You know, it's like this John Galt type of you know talk while sit there want to get all your media for free. Like, it's kind of silly and obviously, that's the world I come from. It's like, I looked at advertising as, and when I sold my company. I was like ,hey for every dollar that we bring in advertising this allows us to tell stories. Like we're not, we're not the journalists, like we're not the ones risking our lives but you know, we're able to finance these important stories. And that's an important balance that's personally something I do believe I believe very strongly, always have and, you know, that's more important now than it is than it has ever I mean, so. So you back back to your, history. So you, saw what Bitcoin magazine was doing and you said, I want to be a part of this? I tried to buy their company so two things good thing they didn't sell and good thing went by. But no, look I thought, because once again Vice also had a print publication. Which is you know was pretty groundbreaking what they were doing there. And I said, look, we're already printing, why don't we just take over these media operations? Remember, we had like a team of like, sixty people in our add ops or media ops, right? Like, that's bigger than the entire magazine team is now, just just to run media ops and it just seemed like a beautiful kind of balance. We could do that things and go I end up leaving vice. We don't we don't buy them. Did David said no, obviously? A lot of unique things happen. I left the company, not positive things. And kind of left that and you know, took some time off of the family and traveled. Once again you run a company and you never take a day off ever. You work nonstop and then all of a sudden in your position where you can take some time and understand what's important. And it's also very humbling to when you do that. I mean, New York in the media scenes, especially where it's such an exciting company there's so many things happening. It's addicting, like this is now the next. You can get invite to anywhere, you get in anywhere? Like the stories are just you know, the stories were fun, they were insane. But you know, I think where it helped me was that none of it seemed, you know, everything we're doing right now that seems insane. Like, well we've done that before we, you know, this seems quite quite normal or the kind of increase in the rise especially whether that was advice or other companies. Whether you help you sit there and you watch Venmo get built in the start. And you're now seeing that we're just uses that, for some of the things we built for everything from Red Bull, The Rolex, we helped workforce. So, it was exciting to see and it's fun to do that. But to take time off, and my kids were five and three and kind of travel the world a little bit and you're like, oh, that's more important than all this other shit. So, that was fun and, I love took some time off. I was building a home and enjoying that. And always, you know, I look really respected what David was doing. Thought it was important space. You know, you can tell the passion. You know, you talked to David, you could tell he just absolutely loves it, right. You know, his, he co founded a company. I remember seeing his mom. The conference thing is the second one, was that the 2021? His mom was out there because the lines were like two hours to get into the conference. And his mom was out there talking to you. Hey, we're sorry that I mean, you could just tell they have this like, this is awesome. His mom out there, like work in the crowd and Kelly Bailey still gets in my slack asking questions. So like, I'll get a Slack message from Kelly Bailey be like. Hey, why are we doing this? Or why are we doing that? I'm like okay, I'm gonna, like talk to him, like, shit what just happened? Like, what's going on? I need the numbers, I need to you know, so. Look, I think that's grounding. I think it's grounding and family. Like, there's a big family element towards BTC Inc., which is the parent company. Obviously, that probably doesn't get enough credit, in my opinion, but it was a number one driver. While I want to then go work at the company. So, I showed up kind of before the Twenty-one conference, I was just catching up with David always. You know, once again, a fan of any media, and you know, I remember walking into their office in Nashville. And there's, and you can just tell looking at the team. I'm like, oh, this thing's about to happen, like something is changing here and for me, you know, I kind of bet my career on it. Whether that was you know, when I started looking at Facebook, first I'm saying this is it and running for political office on Facebook being the first person elected or critic first. Like, you know, these moments were like, oh, this is happening. And, you know, luckily, since I had a relationship with the guys, I wasn't some outsider coming in. I was someone who had always helped talk to them or done, you know, certain things and I was like this conference is gonna be it's gonna be big. Let me just help. You know, it's just a friend. I'm like, we just help on some things. That's before the twenty one conference? Yeah, I was just like, let me just help. Let me just be there. Guys got a lot going on. It looks like and, you know, it was just kind of behind the scenes helping a little bit and then obviously, twenty one hit and it was like a baptism, right? It was like being at Woodstock or something. I mean, it was one of those. Like, if you were there, you will always remember it. There's everyone remember? Yeah, right. I guess, obviously, I cared about Bitcoin, obviously, I cared about what this company was doing. But you know I don't think I realized, and when you invest in community, sometimes you get hurt by them. Sometimes you might not open up and then I was probably pretty close down for a couple of years. After kind of my last tour and and then we looked at the Bitcoin committee was actually after the El Salvador announcement when we had this after party. And once again, we hit so many people that like, our systems like were broken and we couldn't scan badges, right? It's like people coming in and starts raining and Justin, who did a great job really kind of making conference come out of nothing and amazing job running. Him and I, are like standing out in the rain. And like it was very for me, it was like the moment that I was like, okay, I want to be part of this. I'm like we're like checking wristbands but our systems are down. So, we have like our phones on like fake scanning cards. I'm like, your lats come in and like, there was like a bunch of very attractive women who showed up for me and I'm like, nope, your past doesn't work. We made them stand over there and some nerdier guys come in. Like, oh, you can come in like, oh, wow, we're allowed to this never happened to Miami was screaming at us. It's raining and like people coming in and they're so excited. And like, all these guys are like, you know, everyone's like, right out taking their clothes off not to Miami as much. Probably guys just eat meat and do hundreds and thousand of pushups. They were like, kind of dance around random, like, holy shit tis this was a baptism. This is exciting and it was fun to just see the release from everyone who worked so hard on it, you know? And the community wanted it. I mean, there was like, packed. I mean, we had twelve to fourteen thousand people was Wynwood. Where we had Miami was absolutely packed. Wasn't supposed to be like half that size? Yeah, I mean, we we probably violate every fire code. There was, no we didn't and then, you know, you take a look at it. And it just the energy was there, just the energy and I remember, for some of the earlier things that developed I was like. Wow, this is here's some the smart people who are passionate like. This is kind of a chemistry and a formula that's always going to add always has worked and it wasn't, I felt that kind of back to that passionate like. Hey, this is a fight that I want to be part of, and this is a community that is. It has something quite special and probably the concerns, I had for the other things I was involved in, didn't happen. There is no CEO Bitcoin, there's no one that overvalue the company and not take a deal from Disney and and destroy it. Or like, you know, there's no Mark Zuckerberg who was gonna, I don't know, try to sell your data to over the world. But you know Bitcoin and also had the right I think dynamics in community once again. I was involved in politics and sort of the political side had the media side. And the one side that I thought was most important of the marketing side and the branding side. That honestly, no one in Bitcoin is even looking at. So, I thought that was the one of the biggest values that I've read and listened to trillion podcasts and a million books. No one ever talks the Bitcoin brand itself, which I think is one of the most magical parts about Bitcoin and I thought there was a place for me to kind of help with that. And I know the value of telling stories, I know the value that. The importance of being able to build an independent media company is how any community desperately need needs that that voice and we can't just let allow a bunch of companies to make blog posts that are unsent that are already and there's nothing wrong against that. But if every company is the only one giving you media, in the space, and that's not a good recipe, right? And so there is a real important. Bitcoin magazine has been dead and come back from the dead numerous times. Just like Bitcoin, I'm not the owner of Bitcoin magazine. I'm just the current caretaker, you know, and so like that, I take that role extremely seriously. You know, there was, I mean, CK did amazing job before me, brought me in and helped me. I was so lucky to kind of work with him. I knew the media side, and he obviously knew the, the Bitcoin side and truly, I think inserted an important value into what we were doing there and there'll be someone ten times better than us and take over. You know, in run Bitcoin magazine after I'm gone. So, like, and that's my job is to make sure that handoff happens and make sure the brand is where it should be. And to make sure it still plays for these important stories. I mean, sometimes there may be a little bit frustrated. I look back and I'm like we might not have owned it when Bitcoin magazine first started. But like, we took care of that archive were the archive of Bitcoin. I look back at some of these old stories, and like, there's metallic interviewing Brian Armstrong being. Like, well, I'm gonna start this new website called Coinbase. And like you can buy something on it, here's my email. Email me Brian at Coinbase. You know, like, I might do marketing someday, and I'm looking at this, like, what a unbelievably important article. And like, everyone is gonna tell you a bitcoin is gonna make a trillion dollars is gonna take over the whole world. Like, cool, so why are we not preserving that history? And so Bitcoin magazine has an important role in that. And, you know, you don't always have to agree Bitcoin magazine, and I don't think it's always healthy to 100% agree with any media company that you're supposed to have? Well, really it shouldn't agree with itself. Articles that have contradict or tick the both sides of it and I think you guys do a pretty good job with that. Yeah, look, can we try and there's a balance. Where you have reporting your contributors, and I think something we need to probably make sure any kind of listener understands. Contributors are important ecosystem here and if you look at people written for Bitcoin magazine, we've been in the home for a lot of these. I think, important stories that have been part of the history of what's happened in Bitcoin. Some of the biggest names have been able to kind of get their opinion piece or kind of unique research out there. That to be honest, coin desk or coin telegraph, they're not going to have that they're gonna talk about polka dots price or whatever else like that, I get it fine, that's their business model, right? They get more pageviews than me. So, I guess they're doing better. But you know, like, what are they talking about? Fine, right, we have to talk there's a lot more history in the culture of what Bitcoin is actually doing. It is important to so our contributors, and we try to encourage more that. I think we're trying to get better writers, maybe veteran writers who have more history. Funding investigative journalism is the reason why it doesn't exist in the rest of the media world. It's because it's almost impossible. I'm fortunate that someone pays, twenty one dollar an issue, right? This is like a coffee table, beautiful mag, right? We are so lucky that people pay for the subscription, that allows us then to invest in long form journalism that no one else is, hands down. So, we owe to the community right? I mean, we put every penny that we make and then we take a lot of other of David's pennies to put into the company to make this a media company. People can shrug off you know story or say like, Hey man, oh, my buddy, blog about that and that's okay. You have an independent media company. This gives us a battering ram to go after and not only tell important stories. But, be able to put ourselves in a position to protect the reporters that are writing about this. It puts us in a position to ask the tough questions from the government that I'm sorry, if you're just a little Twitter person, you're not going to have that bounce. I mean, you know, it's annoying but like, remember when he was journaling how much trial. Someone had to go in that trial that Craig Wright trial is gonna be recorded. And coin geek because they're financed by, whatever his name is I forget his name. The guy does all the weird stuff in St. Barts, forget his name. Like Calvin? Oh, that guy. I don't like that guy. That guy's got coin geek and you know, which is he pretends as a media company, right? But it's not. He finance, recording that trial and I knew coin geek was gonna do they were gonna just show on their face. They're gonna just just to get that video and so we have Bitcoin magazine. When we decided we were gonna cover that trial, we had to go to the Norwegian courts. We had to fight with the courts to be able to sit there say we're more independent media outlet, right, that can record this. We had to spend a tremendous amount of money to actually go out there to record it, you have a four person team they have out there for two weeks, right? That could cost you money? We didn't really have the best journalist for legal review stuff and Mills is amazing and she did an absolutely amazing job. Kind of spearheading this project and had to sub in as kind of this like court reporter. Which was, I think it's our true calling. But we had to capture all the video and then we had to syndicate that out to the rest of the media companies immediately. Now, we chose to blur it Hall nots face which made someone really angry. But that's an investment so let's say, we put about $80,000 worth of time preparing for the trial, filming the trial, getting that out there cutting that up having to distribute to all the the media companies. The lawyers, that's review everything that we were doing. The time that we spent in the region court to fight back and forth to sit there and be for us to be the ones that can actually record it to then give it out. How much money we make on YouTube for the views we got or or pageviews$118 dollars? Like, it doesn't add up. Now, the Norwegian trial, how that was one time we could have video. We finally have video of Craig Wright and Stan, I, we recorded that whole thing. There none the other trolls have video, right? That was I am happy that other people covered the other trolls? They should? I mean, the Coppa case, they absolutely should. I mean, I'm embarrassed because we couldn't, the tornado mixing case recently came up we couldn't cover that we didn't have the funds. You know, we didn't have the right people in position. That's more important case, in my opinion than anything else. And so once again, how are you going to make that investment in this? How can you balance off the time that not just getting people to write free articles? But you're talking about legal fees, and airports and making sure that you know you're having certain. Everything from what video equipment you use to the feeds and so there's a lot that goes into that and you have to know when to pick your fights and pick your battles. But that was absolutely something that needs to be reported on. There was absolutely some that was important, that timeline and that was something we really felt passion that we had a chance to record. I would have been happy if we found out that Craig was really Satoshi and he signed those things. But he just didn't and you looked at him and you watch that video. Wow, that guy's crazy. Its amazing how much damage he was able to do to so many people's lives, before he finally had his downfall recently. I mean, how was he not the enemy? Like, how was he not the bad is the bad guys? Like, he's a psychopath, like Dan was on the spectrum. You know, without any actual skills, so it was important. I mean, we watched about how that was just attacking. Once again people attack sometimes you have a right to be critical and that's something that bitcoin does very well, but you looked at some of this just the way that he was kind of attacking. Just sucking the energy out of good people that were trying to do things. I mean, I'm happy that you know that we don't have to worry about that anymore. But, if you look at how much money and time and energy the saddest thing is how much of my time energy had to go into defending you know, this this loser. Impacted a lot of people's lives and like real horses. And look and the best thing about it was like cotton that was legitimately the person who had the greatest like has bitcoins values is like a true symbol bitcoins values and morals versus the person who absolutely does and like everything that Bitcoin stands against was the perfect it's the perfect story right like and once again other hot want to do that, like we got involved, obviously, you know, you know, the Citadel and there's other some cool stuff. He's done the media, right, we're not like that person is a competitor. We're like, no, this person's right, and like, why is this person taking all the you know, is taking all the arrows and all the heat? And let's be honest, no one wants to cover that trial. CoinTelegraph doesn't cover that trial. They were afraid to say anything about Craig Wright. They were afraid of getting sued. I am bad because he would he would just file suit against anybody. He had everyone afraid of getting sued. No one wanted to cover it. What happened everyone was trials, no one covers it. They just wait for coin geek to give out a press release and then NBC is like, the ghost was Satoshi got fined by Florida court. So once again, people were afraid. Now we're lucky you might not love everything that we stand for. But guess what? A media company based in Nashville with, founder like David who's like. Fuck you, let's go and also, half of our company that we're all American citizens. So, first amendment, that we're like. Hey, we're working on this, we made sure that people who are international didn't work on this because, we want to try them, they don't get pulled, right? British courts, right? And the rest of us were like, you know, sharpening our sword. Like, let's go like, we would love to have this fight. That was learning experience for me to realize how crazy the laws are. And then you can salute them in these other places. I was like. I mean, look, that's here's the other. You asked me before about what changes companies will then it's the legal part of this, right? So if you want to, if you want to have a blog and tell passionate stories, that's cool. No one's going after you, your immediate company have a target on your back now. You have to be more you have to be more prepared for this. You have to run things by the lawyers and you have to. Unfortunately, we do run things by lawyers and usually say no on things. Like, when fed now when we made a satire shirt and then the federal government. The federal reserve tried to sue us and we were like. Oh yeah, some fun clothing. We were kind of making some comments on the Fed now coin, which looks like a like a flow neighs ad. Ship brands like, it looks like that 24/7. It's the worst brand you've ever seen in your entire life, the Fed now logo. And then we made one that was satire of HBO's. Like, a kind of eye of Mordor, you know, fed now that Annabelle did amazing job on, we put it out there. And they wrote to us like, well, people might be confused with your Bitcoin magazine and the Federal Reserve the Fed Dow the most important in how we track your life? And we had a great lawyer who we were who worked pro bono with us on this. And we said, no, we're not taking this down, and came up with a whole line of clothing. And then I filed for the for the trademark on fed now for clothing, which the Federal Reserve doesn't have that on everything else. So, now I hopefully fingers crossed, you could get the trademark. So, then I could see the federal reserve for clothing. I don't know if that'll work like that. But we'll see, and became the number two selling kind of product that we've ever had read at least. So, you know, but once again, you can make a wrong move. And you know, you can find yourself in a lot of court. I mean, like, look, I have a lot of sympathy for Peter McCormick. I mean, he took on the truth was because he was British. Whatever knows court systems, he was kind of really exposed. There was a financial hardship for him. I remember, like, sitting down talking to him. Like, he was like, I could lose everything. He's like, go yeah, it's just the fees alone were like astronomical, Right, I mean, that's what they tried to within sounds like and once again. This is where a media company has, they couldn't come after us media company, right.? There were certain protections, we had certain assurances that we had. And obviously, being a US based media company, there's certain value we had there. I think that was saying that your wife calm. So look, that's quite important. I mean, look at me now coin desk was was acquired by an exchange as well. Were they? Who acquired coin desk? I know, some like bold. You know, all these exchanges have weird bowls as their exchanges. Because they think that's like creative. Like, here's a bowl, we're tough, right? So not really that creative, but I think one of them bought it. So, you know, I think that it's difficult because also someone needs to hold the rest of the press media accountable for when some of these stories come out. So, we have a series called fad fighters, for example. So when the UN report comes out, you in universities, like Bitcoin mining uses more water than the world, right? How's that possible? And then the problem is, what media does, as you can see, I mean, it's coordinated attack. They'll put this article out every press release goes out, every traditional media is like Bitcoins, that green. Well, who's fighting back on that right? And so much money, we have to invest in telling that story in Africa. Okay, we have to break down does this actually make sense, right? Bitcoin doesn't have a PR department. That's, the problem is that's where the press is getting away with it because they're not someone from NBC. Like, well, we want to tell this story. We asked this really random person who will represent Bitcoin in this case. Like, what do you think and make it look like it's stupid, right? There's no press there used to ask a PR company. Sorry, the PR office of a brand. Yeah, that's what they do. There is no one to do it so they get away. Which is, being able to attack and someone needs to punch back and that's going to be us. I mean, I've seen that so clearly with stuff the hit pieces done on El Salvador. The crazy thing is, they get so many of just the normative, like facts wrong. Like, they'll like do you even like fact check anything like no, that's not the name of that city or that's not the pup. It's it's so off base but then one entity puts it out and everybody else just repopulates it under their own, right? I mean, look, and this is, then it's truth, then people think it's truth. Because oh no, it was in Forbes, it says that the that El Salvador is like falling apart because of Bitcoin. And look, and we're at a sad point, like, I was very badly, I was very proud of work for me to company. And I'm just been horribly disappointed with what many companies have become. And truthfully, they're not even willing to. Number one, when they get things wrong, they don't manage this, never. Do they ever say that? And they weirdly want to protect all the other media companies not protect the ability to tell a good story, which is shocking. So, we're watching media companies that are unwilling to call each other out. On where the facts actually are the good and bad about Bitcoin versus Bitcoin and will call you out on everything. Self like. You know that. And, you know, I don't get mad about it, right? Like, I'm like, okay, passionate group of people want it now. I think it's like lame when a couple of people like, you know, everyone in Chicago magazine sucks. And you guys all suck, and you know what? I'm like, going somewhere else, and I'm like, and I a lot of us. Like, please do if the found that other? What's that other media coming to Bitcoin only? Oh, there's none. Okay, good. Please, like find them? Like the markets open? Go ahead, right. Like, and, you know, it's just, it's sometimes it's a little bit aggravating because there's a lot of work. But you know, the truth is, at our company, we don't do probably a good job of communicating the work that kind of goes in behind the scenes. All that we're doing is we think our proof of work, whether it's the conference itself, or whether it's our product. You know, like we don't talk about how, what it takes to build a company, all the other companies love to tell you all day how hard it is for them to build their company, how great they are, right? Like, we don't do that. People you just lucked out. You got this, you know, this conference. This is dropped out of the sky, and then here you go. Yeah, it's the conference is special. And obviously, I think Brandon Green who does amazing job running it and should absolutely have him here and you know, Justin? You guys need to get the whole Bitcoin ink team down to El Salvador. I know. I think he made his lead or at least a week down here. So, everybody understands what's going on here. You know, if Max is down here, right? Which he is, see the promise you have such a great cheerleader that with with Max. But maybe, he'll have to do like a baptism for the whole Bitcoin magazine team or something. You know, maybe we made a detour, we're supposed to come here. And they made a detour in Puerto Rico, unfortunately. But you know, I think when we're thinking about the team that works on it. A lot of things are going to spring from the kind of core that Bitcoin magazine has. David Taylor, a couple of other founders, who, if they were smart business people, they would have closed this up a long time ago, right? There's a reason why when Bitcoin magazine was first started, that it lasted. The team that worked on it for you know, two years and then kind of gave it up and another team bought and gave it up, right? Didn't make financial sense, right? So there has to be a certain level of just grit. And you know, not listening to anyone else that allows someone to try to push forward with this? It's ideological it's not just about making money. Like, it's you got to make enough money to keep the doors open. But if you were in it, just to make money you'd be doing something else. I know, the sad thing is I was like, the difference is like to look at the guys you know. The founders like hey, we've just been smarter you guys just bought Bitcoin and never done any of this and not work. You guys didn't work and buy up so much. We've been what if it was about the money it would been fine, right? But you know, obviously, there's a passion behind this. Look, that's what the whole team has, right? The biggest hack for Bitcoin company ever is that your company culture is Bitcoin. So, I don't think we're like the best managed company in the world. But you know, what our company culture is the values bitcoin is perfect. What a perfect filter for people that come in, what a perfect filter for what we what we believe in. We have people work all around the world that our company totally different. There's such a level of kind of respect and conversation that automatically happens because we value Bitcoin. That you know, you're looking at someone who you're working with, you have the same passion you're doing. You care about the same things you value these certain things, these kind of core principles that kind of Bitcoin that are with individuals. But yet everyone's different, right? You'll have the super like, American conservative next to like someone who just left the Bernie Sanders campaign. But you know, versus someone who's like, I would like to take down the Federal Reserve and topple all governments right. And yet somehow, there's an absolute respect when working with each other. Everyone brings something kind of different to that to the table there. So that part of it I really like, I think that's been a saving grace for our company. I'm not sure if that's the way for all Bitcoin companies. Because sometimes their mission is Bitcoin. But their mission is also their direct company. So, their way of looking at things like this is exactly how we have to do it, and you're with our company or against our company. And for us, like, we know, a lot of people are against us sometimes. And that's fine. Like, we've been around for twelve years, we were here before you and we'll be here after you and that's fine. But the to sit there and you know, I think really allow for different voices, that's something we've we've always done whether people choose to read that or not. I don't care, we'll always make sure we're a platform to have these different types of voices in the space. And it's important for that, like Bitcoins, important thing to allow people to have conversation. What it can be, what it could be, what it should be. What it technically can and cannot do what is morally can and cannot do what a politically can and cannot do, right? Like, no one speaks for Bitcoin, we just talk about it all the time, right? So, people want us to try to, it's tough, because as someone who understands there's a delicate balance that we have. We're not supposed to speak for what Bitcoin is, no one is, right. But yet, then people get mad when we don't speak about the right thing about what Bitcoin is. Like, I don't know what to tell you. And, you know, that can happen in our conference for people that we choose to speak. Or we that can happen for what we put on, who we choose to have stories about or not have stories about. But once again, I think as it's important to make sure that people are still curious, and people it's not about like, being respectful. I'm saying, don't yell at me on Twitter. I mean, you can yell at me on Twitter all the time, I don't care. But I think it's more about what we're looking for is there's people come and work for us. Like, I get a little frustrated, like these people can work for us. And they're doing an amazing job, they really love this space, and they have their own personal views on what Bitcoin is, right? We were talking before I know even the recent controversy has been ordinals. And I'm sure even a Bitcoin magazine, there's people all over the board as far as how they view ordinals as a positive or a negative or a neutral for Bitcoin. I guess, isn't the point to have different point of views? I mean, we can have an argument what technically can happen, what technically can't happen? What the coin is supposed to be? Because you said it is versus what Bitcoin is. I'm someone who doesn't own a single ordinals never bought? Or Noah said you should buy an order? No, that's the majority of the viewpoint of Bitcoin magazine. But the overwhelming majority viewpoint Bitcoin magazine is we should have the right to be able to talk about what this is. We should be able to have a platform, people can share their opinions if they as a contributor. If they think it's good for Bitcoin or bad for Bitcoin, why would we not? Why would we not try to do some provide some information? I think it's weak minded people who say, don't talk about this, don't let anyone see you talk about this, right? Like, just don't talk about, it's not like it exists. Like, if you don't talk about it doesn't exist. And then you look around you go. There's like every other media company out here talking about this. Like you think now they're not gonna like, they're not gonna go to coin desk and coin telegraph or anywhere else. Now, if they believe that Bitcoin magazine has a position, that's understandable. Where we wouldn't necessarily we should not have a position. Have we sold some ordinal ordinals of our cover? We have. I liked them. I think that's great. People want to buy him great. I don't see that's not value for me, but there's value for other people. I think they have the right to buy certain things. And we did work on something called bear BTC where we was a brokerage, where people had inscriptions, we're trying some trying to match those up. It was once again, as you're kind of going to discover what is ordinals. Like, people came to Bitcoin are there because they were curious, right? There's, I was interested by some of it, you're reading it. Okay, not for me, what's the value? Do I understand when people are saying. I can understand people's concerns about block space and that. Once again, we've written about that, I can understand people's concerns about noobs getting wrecked on investing in. Buying NFT's thing they grew up, that's obviously something that we don't ever want to do. I mean when you when liquid came out, I started liquid and they're doing they're kind of NFT's. Everyone like you have to be on if you're really Bitcoin cup, you have to spark block streams liquid. You have to be honest, we didn't write. I mean, I wasn't really on but this was this is on Bitcoin. Yeah. Right. Like that's the problem, we just cover Bitcoin as much as people tell us that it's not Bitcoin. It's on Bitcoin, where we can cover that they have concerns about other parts of our business. In terms of how their business operates. They have every right to be skeptical about that and to talk about it and send us an article, right? I think it's good to have it's good to have critics. It's good to have people calling you out. And like said, some people go over the top, and they're just rude. And that usually doesn't get anywhere. But it's totally fine. Like, it makes sense now. People are critical about things they care about. Like, I know, we kind of joke like it, we didn't look into getting this. But like, I feel lucky that I'm epically magazine. I feel like I had a long history long career, and I feel lucky that I'm in this position right now. Do I feel that you owe a unique obligation to your readers? There's people who pretend like they're readers, they say. I'm canceling my subscription for the eighth time. I'm like, you've never subscribed, but okay. But you know, you have to owe it to be critical of yourself. You have to be critical of the media outlet that you put out there. You do, or you're going to become like a cold blog pamphlet. And that's not the point. Yeah. By the way, like, if you think we're not going to fight back, or whatever. Do you want your media company to be weak? Like, the fight with someone on Twitter is going to be nothing what we if we believe that Twitter's and bitcoins gonna do what we think it's gonna do? What fight do we have ahead of us? It's much bigger, that's fine. I don't need you to agree with me on this, or that part. I'm hoping you're there for when we actually have to lean our shoulders in and have to go for some fight because this ain't gonna be coin telegraph or coin desk, right? Ain't gonna be forbes crypto. They ain't gonna do it for you, right? You can hate me on certain things, that's fine. But when the fights that matter, I hope that you're there. I hope that you're not saying I don't agree with these things. That Bitcoin magazine is doing so never going to help them out again and again, whatever. But speaking of agreeing on Bitcoin magazine, here's my favorite story. So, this is the cover of the El Salvador she this was the first time we ever went to the reprint, right? Which yeah, I didn't realize that was the first physical going back to physical edition. Yeah, so if we're called Bitcoin magazine, we should have a magazine magazine. Yeah. And this was an unbelievable cover. Aaron von worden, who's one of the best writers out there, he spent like three months down here. Now Salvador, which, once again, the nice thing about doing a print publication is you have time to tell a story. So, sometimes people just expect like, I want my Twitter stuff. Now. I want it destroyed now, and online, you have like a twelve hour window. And that's why half the people get all those stories wrong. And with print, you know, it's not getting some that's a week old of a story. So, Aaron had time I think he did a great job of showing both sides. No, but I thought he was fair? Aaron's Dutch as well. So like, there's not you know, he's factually, here's all the facts. Which makes him a great report. And the funny thing was, like this was one of the photos in the issue and I was working on. This was supposed to be the cover, I just want to point that out this right here with you on it. So, they're not to kiss your butt. But there you go, right? There was you on it was like, are bad, I'm good and evil, right? And like, this is the kind of work can we add an El Salvadorian? You know, like, cartoon artists make it. And everyone's like, Oh, man is like it was cool, but not it's not gonna work. And then like, this image was in one of the articles. And Pete Rizzo, was like, we had our prints up and the first one got reprinted all the prints are everywhere. And like, it makes no sense to do a print publication. So, financially or mentally, like, it's just a dumb idea, right? Like, it just doesn't make sense. You have to really love it. And he saw this image and he's like, this is it. This is the cover and he's like, just holding up. He's like, does this look like the cover? Right? I think it was like we were going on for I don't know how many hours we were in the office. And was like, I remember no one could fit in the offices there was like in town. So, there's actually a national there's like a a luggage. A sofa store underneath us, and there's a sofa store. Luckily, like we paid off the person at the sofas or we're like, go out for lunch and like close the store. And like we're just sitting like everyone just sitting in all these like luxury sofas or something like that. And we're like arguing sitting on sofas, on the sofa store of what the cover should be. And once again, that's those are romantic about those times. Now, because you know, it was right that was that was the right cover. That was the right cover 100% when I saw that I was like, they nailed it. And you know, what is amazing? So, Don and Ron who's in this he actually helped build this podcast studio right here like this student. Yes, this studio being paid in Bitcoin. So he's on the construction crew, I mean he is one of the hardest workers always like you know with a smile on his face and getting paid in Bitcoin. So, it's awesome to see and when we are able to show him work. You're on the cover of this magazine that's like all over airports and bookstores around the US and the world. I think it was kind of a proud moment for him to go, you know. Bitcoin is something that I thought that the look into his eyes it's gonna tell you a story, right? One thing that were lacking in Bitcoin is actually real photos and real images. Actually, even worse and thank God we didn't do that cartoon cover because now with AI everything is just AI Bitcoin art. I understand very inexpensive do it you want to try to it? There's such a fee that it goes into to try to capture real photos and honestly what is bitcoin is supposed to actually help real people. I mean, this is like National Geographic quality, like. I mean, you guys captured it there. Look at his run and it takes you think how many at bats it takes you to get that right? Like, you try to recapture it again, it doesn't always know. And so you know, one of the things that the conference done an amazing job with a new a Bitcoin magazine. We knew, we had to fight to get like be a Getty Images accompanies that we could take photo. So, we can make sure it gets distributed and we you know that it sounds silly, but every other media company is gonna use the Getty Images or Image Licensing Service. From what happened at our conference to talk about whether that's sailor or whether that's with Jack Dorsey. So, it sounds it doesn't sound like a big deal to everyone else but like no one understands the information. More that's currently happening behind the scenes because guess what, usually it's a major company that's doing it has a huge budget has everything else. Like, essentially have a bunch of passionate people that are trying to sit there and work on the media narrative. That is happening for Bitcoin, one of those things like here's where the image rights are licensing how other media companies. How do you fight against other media companies about this? How do you secure videotaping rights in a Norwegian court? To make sure that the trial so you can have images of you know, Craig Wright on the stand right? And once again, if bitcoin wants get to that next level, you need to have people who are willing to kind of have those battles and immediate companies. I think one of the you know, the most important warriors in this game. I agree. We were talking earlier about something you're passionate. I'm definitely in agreement with the importance of the marketing of just the Bitcoin symbol. And how that's come to be so I don't we can pull that up. And I didn't even realize this that this was kind of the history of that. So, we'd love to hear you kind of expand on that and why you think it's so important and really under appreciated and utilized right now within the Bitcoin space. Yeah, so like okay, take step back. Why am I happy I'm here why bring my family here? My kids who think I'm which is always embarrassing my kids like my dad is the president of Bitcoin. Like, Bitcoin magazine it's not really it doesn't. But I feel like I have to make sure this this works and my kids are proud of me. You know your kids are going to be proud of what you do, and what you work on the doodle Bitcoin everywhere. They do the Bitcoin logo they put the stickers on everything, you know to them it's a symbol to brands and that means something. You know in our town, where we live that there's no one has Bitcoin things anyone that's okay. They came here we walked around right? And once again I've been here before but only when you guys kind of first when the law you know was first proposed. We will talk about who came was. I was doing my job. You know, I think that when you come around. You look around what you've done and what everyone else has done, where you've helped kind of Krieger Bitcoin beach. You're seeing the Bitcoin be everywhere, you're seeing the art side of it you're seeing it actually incorporate people to embrace it. It was kind of fun to watch my kids, that's all up there look at new look at this take a look at Satoshis bar. This is just a real world proving ground here Bitcoin beach of like, how the Bitcoin B is actually used? And, you know, I think that you've had some great speakers here who understand finance and why Bitcoin is money in the technology standpoint, the political standpoint. But like, you look at every podcast, no one talks about the value of the marketing of it. Why because private quarters don't think a logo means marketing. Which means scam, which means something else. But you know, the oddity that of all the scam coins in the entire world like the Bitcoin B is a great logo and no one's ever even been able to come close. Like, I don't want to say how much of the success comes. When looking in and I didn't realize this looking at those like, there you can see. Like, I don't know if it would have made it. It wouldn't, no one wants to say that's what Satoshi designed when he made it worse things. Toshi ever did with that logo, right like BC literally like what before Christ, right? Like, I mean, what's the first Satoshi will be like BS. Like, I mean, what that is, first off, just aesthetically horrible, right? And I get it once again. You brilliant people aren't really great designers like the art and science the reason why there's a separation right? And then so, you know, I think the look at 2010, you know. I mean, once again, that B was pretty great. Yeah, get it right. I mean, the dollar, the dollar lines on it. Well done brilliant, but it was gold and like army's supposed to try to replace gold like isn't the point. And then you just have this like little orange B that's like, tilted 14% forward to always show progress. And it was just, and people don't understand like the two tone like only having two colors. Like, how much that actually deals like printing cost and everything was like, this was perfect, right circular. Everyone has tried to copy it right? And even better yet, which I always find funny. Is this one down to a vote on the Bitcoin message on the Bitcoin report. Well, there's about like, which one should we use? Because everyone's like, you know, I think the two timelines kind of sucks we hate gold. And there was a bunch of like different versions, and like this one like was the clear winner but like 180 Vote votes to turn into like 100 Something votes. It allowed for a brand that by the way, the fact that that brand and once again when bit boy not not cage fighter bit boy, but other bit boy, who was the designer submitted it was like. Hey, man, this is free for everyone to use, like for commercial use, like Go ahead. I believe personally that this is gonna be the greatest brand and logo identity like ever built. And it's one that's open source, so there's beautiful companies called Nike and Red Bull and Rolex. What you think of when you think of that brand right? Well, they own the rights if you call this Red Bull Beach, literally like the Red Bull helicopter combined lawyers would parachute out to just sue the shit out of you right? Like, that's what happened if you legally use their logo. I've a quick of a funny story. So I have food business, that's what I came from. And we would do stuff at big events and so we did one year deep fried Starbucks was we'd always do these weird things. It was on like, Good Morning America and it was like blew up and it was like a day later lawyer shows up CSUN. Like, they track this down that quick. We spend hundreds of millions of dollars to invest this logo to tell a story. So, like this is what you think of and we don't want anyone to touch it or anyone to look at or do anything off of that. And then instead bitcoin is like here's an open source logo that here's our values. In fact, if he is it not only will lawyers not come but people will come. I think we did here at Bitcoin Beach someone talked about was like you use the Bitcoin logo you use the Bitcoin name, right? I know it was cool for everyone back in the day to like come up with crypto something or you know. They come up with bebop or whatever you know, they use weird names right? Bitcoin Beach, get it, this is the great. I mean it's a logo that I consider like almost like it's a free franchise right? Like anyone put this logo on it, but all you have to do is make sure that you adopt the currency. That you adopt some of the values that that come along with Bitcoin. Obviously, people fight the most because they say this is what I believe Bitcoin demeanor this way. But, you see these Bitcoin bars that are opening, I mean, like, PUBKEY I think is my favorite bar. You know, they there they try to be cooled not Bitcoin branded, because they're super cool New Yorkers. But you know, you go in there, it's like this great as Bitcoin trying. You know, versus sometimes it was called the Bitcoin bar might not be as cool. But Bitcoin beach. I mean, I think you actually lucked into a beautiful name here. I mean, it's a very obvious name, but like, I think what's also special is, anyone can can name that right. And you know, you don't you didn't trademark it, you didn't try to control it. And there's something beautiful that can come out of what's seen here. Because this because it's called bitcoins attracting people. I mean, I'm wearing this heat jersey, and this is a PERT, this little Australian baseball team. I know Australia had baseball teams, right? I'm a diehard New York Yankee fan, right? Like, I would never wear another jersey, but a look at this. It was like it was pretty dope. Let's go Bitcoin B's on it, right? And essentially, like, is it now that like, it's the team identity, right? Like, you are, and there's a lot of value to that. And the fact is that the when other companies spend hundreds of millions of hours to invest in logo, it's the community that has completely investments logo. You understand the values, right? You understand what it means. You don't have to explain it, to people that once you know. It's like, okay, and it comes I know what those people stand for. Man except the currency. You know, you accept that you get the community, right? I mean, it's kind of a joke, but epic when we put the Bitcoin logo on crocs. We like talk to crocs, we're like, let's do it. Let's do something, right? And we have Bitcoin crocs that we sold Two-thousand One Hundred Bitcoin crocs, right? Like, I thought it was pretty fun. Everyone who doesn't like crocs still some water like you know, because you love once again, you kind of love that brand. I don't like crocs. My son loves Crocs and I was like when I'm like, I showed him he's like, those are dope. Yeah, Bitcoin is for the kids. And so I think that part of it is. What makes it interesting is and I think Bitcoiners maybe don't appreciate this like there's a culture war that's happening. For Bitcoin with everyone else, right? You've had brilliantly smart people tell you why technically Bitcoin works. Why it mathematically works? Why it's financially going to work and all these important things. You're not talking about the marketing cultural reasons why Bitcoin works. And it's also sometimes our biggest problem as Bitcoiners because that's why when there's all these other scams, right you know, send me Pay Pal give me Bitcoin, right? They're trading off the Bitcoin name so you can't control who uses it right so the downside to having an open source brand is that anyone can use the name Bitcoin now. You can't really trade the trademark rights come in interesting with Bitcoin itself. But you know, there's there's really a unique opportunity here and I personally believe we got worked with to get like Pez to be the Bitcoin Pez dispensers. These are little things where you're showing Bitcoin everyone's life, and there's people that people things that people care about. And now that kind of Bitcoin version of it, it's just actually showing more important dominance or why it's culturally. Something to be important to be proud of, right? Sit there and put on your shelf, and you know, they're not just tchotchkes,it's a symbolism of like different things. That you know, have their own unique value and community. Kind of saying, hey, look, we recognize that you have Bitcoin have built something special and you know, we want to kind of commemorate that by making a version of it. I think that there's some I think that there's some cultural value there and there's things that Bitcoin is you know what, you never feel proud wearing crocs but you feel proud that like, there's Bitcoin crocs, right and so it's kind of like a little like, okay, cool. You know, this this makes me feel good about it, and that's okay. You can do that and if that helps finance media company, that's even crazier that that you have to do it. How many pairs did you guys solve this? You know? We said, we're gonna do twenty-one hundred. You know, man, you're stuck with 21, what's going to talk about great love and Brenda we all know number 21 everything has to be 21. So yeah. So, they sell out? Yeah, that's nice. It is fun, yeah, and then we did a pre sale and then afterwards I was like well where can I go? Well we sold out and they're like what we don't understand that. So I was like, what are you supposed to understand scarcity and that was like the whole thing everybody. So no, I think like I said before looking around here Bitcoin beach. I like that you're seeing the kind of Bitcoin B, be used in the wild and that people take a lot of pride in it. And you know, one of the articles I did one of the articles on like Bitcoin travelers guide to Ukraine were trying to show different countries. And how these Bitcoin Ukrainian had this before the war had one higher Bitcoin. I think it was the sorry one of the largest percentage of Bitcoin holders for you know based on population. We try to talk to him about Bitcoin in place that said they accept the Bitcoin. No one want to talk about it because they're like you with government while you're talking about Bitcoin right? I'm like you say your hotel accepts Bitcoin like why are you asking? I have no Bitcoin who you are right and like you're taken back I'm like well how's this everyone's they like families. Like well yes, I will accept your Bitcoin, when we we got a guy to like we rented a tank from a guy using Bitcoin right? Like it was like his friend did a tank we didn't we rented a tank with a lot of fun. And the difference was, you know, some people don't want to talk about it right. And obviously understand they think that this is government some spiders when listening in. Totally understand a lot of Bitcoiners we know don't want to say that they have Bitcoin. When I print this magazine, here's the problem. We have to put in a cardboard box, right? Send out to everyone because we can't do in standard mail. So like where they put the crappy little thing on it, which is thirty-eight cents to send that out. Because it's medium mail because people don't want to see that they're getting Bitcoin magazine. So, not to pay$3.82 to put it in a cardboard box right? And one time we even put like something nice on it and people were like screaming as a totality. You know, like a top secret like okay, so it depends like box just to give it to people because they don't want to show it fine. Now you come here there's a celebration Yeah, I'm seeing the Bitcoin beat everywhere. The Bitcoiners winners out there, they're like wait people are wearing? I think I have Bitcoin sticker on his cars motorcycle or they're wearing shirts. Aren't they worried they're gonna get robbed and like no this the Quinn's the money of the poor people here. Like, it's what average people use they're not it does it's not associated with the way Bitcoiners from other plate people think about it like they use this day to day. I mean, also let's think about that. You saw President Kelley, use the Bitcoin be as almost the greatest campaign country marketing campaign that's ever happened, right? The Bitcoin B, that sat on you know Miss Universe on her dress right? Which like this cool way of saying like this is how connected we are to this Bitcoin B. It's not just Bitcoin beach find Bitcoin legal tender. I mean, this person not you know, Kelly made part of his campaign. How he decided to run a city and run a country but like that Bitcoin logo is being used as almost a rebranding. We understand the values of Bitcoin are now Some of the values of El Salvador and it's absolutely fascinating. So, you know, I think that part of it's beautiful to see I mean, this is the power of what kind of Bitcoin B can stand for. It's not you know, it's not just there's a lot more to it. That I think, maybe traditional Bitcoiners don't appreciate or respect enough, because it isn't their world. You know, or they think marketing is cringe. But you know, logos, not all marketing is just logos. You know, logos and identity are kind of you know, that shield that superhero. They matter what they do they do the people want to adopt it. I mean, I think we would have called this something different than Bitcoin Beach, there's a good chance it wouldn't have gotten the media coverage. And the other things that helped keep it going and sustaining it, because we have something like kind of that didn't roll off the tongue. They'd be like, oh, that sounds weird, but it was just like Bitcoin beach. That sounds familiar. Just even if they hadn't heard of it before. Bitcoiners are going to come here. And look Bitcoiners don't like spending Bitcoin because stack sat's all day, right. Got it. It feels special to come here and spend Bitcoin. It does, and you know, every time you get to ask him if you're a true Bitcoiner, you should always be asking every time I go out anywhere. You know, New York, New Jersey and like you accept Bitcoin, which I know they don't. And they're like, let me check. I'm gonna cool go check right like so I just wanted to always have constantly ask everywhere like jigs typically. But you know, here you go, you know. Hey, can I pay in Bitcoin? Like yeah, of course, and there's a smile and like lightning or dancing, it feels good, right? Like, and that feels special. And you want to come to a place where something look for a lot of people, you might talk online. But you know, meeting people in person is obviously extremely important. We're big fans of not just our conference, but all the conferences all the Bitcoin meetups are super important, right? Like you get need to feel like you're not alone and you're not yelling into the angry void. And especially something that you might love that your mother in law's like why are you putting all your time and money into this stupid right? Like, I think it's special to kind of go somewhere where it's celebrated like it is here. And it starts with the not just accepting Bitcoins, once again, that's digital, there's nothing to see there. right? Like, the logo is one of the closest things that we have, to like, what is the physic what is the representation? And you can see, I feel it feels welcoming. It feels exciting, you know, like, I got excited. I was like, well, that looks so great. So cool, I even have all the Bitcoin B's like, on trash cans, right? Like you did some initiative, right? Yeah, we're trying to clean up the community. And there was no public trash cans before. So, we did Bitcoin branded trash cans. Trash cans, right? Like, how great is that? You know, I know a lot of people don't wanna put their Bitcoin magazine into the Bitcoin branded trash cans and they call it trash menu. But I do like the Bitcoin branded trash cans. And once again, that part of it is where also it seems like a committee that's excited to show off that logo. I don't know if bitcoins had that right. This committee is excited to show off that logo they take pride in that logo, they know that logo means something, right? I mean that's an extremely powerful thing. That's why obviously you know, this picture I thought was great you know. We had that shirt on and just man I looked at I was like,this is the this the best ambassador that Bitcoin has. I'll take that. No, I don't think the problem is, I don't think you guys are ever going to have a cover. No, you screw us over. Bitcoin Kosti we've got them yeah, they're great and all around the world. Right and like you know the same look think of it as you know, it's a form of flattery. We came up Bitcoin magazine, that's like when coin telegraph came out, because they try to go for an older form of communication or something else like that. That's flattery, like, everyone has. Like a magnet consensus has like their magazine. And like, this makes no sense. But so think of this flowery, but I would say, you know. Oh, we love it. We love seeing like, the Bitcoin circular economies are spreading in the way they're supposed to decentralized. Like, we don't control them. We try to help and share ideas. We actually learn a lot from them, they are doing things we're like, wow, we never thought of that. That's great. So that's, what's so exciting to see in that space. Yeah, and I guess Bitcoin Beach is lucky to have you. Because I know a lot of other people that were trying to control that they would try to. This is how you should create your own Bitcoin beach. And this is what you could do. And you know, I don't think it would, that would kind of hurt. You know, like, I don't know, maybe giving you more whatever value or whatever other things we're looking for. But it seems like you've built something here where people feel empowered. And it's an exciting brand and people want to come and copy and look at there's a lot more pressure on you. There's a lot of pressure on you and a lot of pressure on Bitcoin beach to be something everyone thinks it's supposed to be. Right which is not easy. We'll just tell them, but that's not what we are. We've already spent one day and you've like, relaxed in the hammock and I'm like, not used to relaxing, some pacing back and forth. One story that guys like, you guys aren't helping out the community. You haven't built a hospital yet. And I'm like this small, grassroots Bitcoin thing. We're not building hospitals. That's, well, it's, also tough because like, once again, we're the Bitcoin Conference. That people like think you're the conference for Bitcoin or like Bitcoin magazine. People are like, you must have a lot of money, and I'm like, you should do this. You should pay for this. Like you, you should charge this way. Because you have a trillion dollars your Bitcoin you're on like. I don't think you even understand how this is done. And we don't have a lot of money. But you know, I think, there's a lot of people are watching what you're doing. You understand when people watch and what we do. And you know, you're always trying to be tried to be better and try to try to learn from those things. I'm sure that, you know, there'll be something that you do that the rest of the community doesn't like. Or you know, or whatnot, but they're they come here and build, I think that's what you've allowed them to do. And they could build their own Bitcoin Beach, right? Oh yeah, a hundred percent! We love, the more the better. Even here with the team, in reality, everybody is here. I'm not the one doing the work, it's the local team doing all the work. It's the local team doing all the work. Oh, that's the issue you don't have that hope. You know, what do you what are you working on? What are you trying to do? Look, I'm from New York City, and I love my city. But it's like,you look at it, and we've moved out, before COVID. But it's embarrassing, I think what's happened there. And you know what the hope is kind of getting lost. Momentum hurts for generations, right? I think that's, it's hard to get back when you lose it. It's hard to get back when you lose it. So that's why momentum is important. And holding on to your values are important, obviously building things and then sometimes apologize when you do things wrong. So, tell us about what people should be looking forward to with the magazine and the conference. What are the things you're excited about? And then we got to go because romance cooking some steaks for us, so. Yes, perfect. So real quick, number one, what to look forward to the conference. I'm personally excited. Why? Because we're gonna be in Nashville. And for all the people who are upset by that, guess what, you've got to Miami three times already? Are people upset by that? I don't know. People always get upset about everything, right? It's kind of over Miami. I'm glad you guys moved to Nashville. Thank you, the people that are upset by or the people that like, already booked their rooms for next year. I was like all these other companies that we wouldn't let sponsor the conference who then like, circle or someone back tries to sponsor. Like, no, and then they like, buy out a whole big, buy everything around us and jack up all the prices and sign three year leases. And we're like,we're not coming back, and so I would say, look, I think Nashville was really exciting. Because, I do believe this like, once again, we're here is El Salvador. I want to come to El Salvador or come here because it was great people around here and other Bitcoiners right? This is gonna be amazing. Always remember this is a great moment we're going to teach the kids how to surf. It'd be great because there's other Bitcoiners here so why would we not move the conference to a different city? Where now a lot of people have gotten national, you know been great you're gonna be there with a bunch of park fun. Bitcoin Park does a great job, which going back to names and they're not even a park. But you know Bitcoin Park which is done which is a great home for a lot of unbelievable Bitcoin events. And they do a great job Ryan team over there. But like we're able to now show Nashville to people in a unique way. Then, maybe I don't know next year can go somewhere else right? Like, I personally, I was like,we got to show the world Bitcoin we got to show Bitcoiners the world right? Like, there's we know that there's not just the commercial element of it. People make it this like their their summer vacation. So, once against during the summer, which is nice, a little bit more family friendly, there'll be a lot more activities for kids to do there. It's going to be tremendous amount of fun. I mean, I get a stress out for our conference team and how they're trying to plan and make all that stuff possible. But it'll be it's gonna be very impressive. You guys need a circular Bitcoin Economy stage. I gotta pull up an advocate and for that, right.? Okay, so we'll look into that. So other things to add maybe on the open source stage. And then second, in terms of what's happening Bitcoin magazine. To let everybody know, I think if you take a look at some of the journalists that we have kind of coming in. We're now I think building up as a media company, for other talented journalists who are able to tell stories that are kind of adjacent to Bitcoin. That we find to be important. So, I'm very proud of that, we have a lot more issues coming out, we have a lot more reporters who we were able to have start and come in and tell those stories. Also, little things we're trying to expand internationally. So, we've opened up offices in Switzerland, in Ukraine, and we're looking at other locations to kind of get this into additional languages. People already naturally doing that, they're kind of stealing our content and doing it. But once you want that content to be out there. So, it's important that, you know, we've tried to open up offices faster, that we can kind of stamp them. So, there's a lot of labor of love that goes into that. And also, I think that you're gonna start seeing a lot more investigative journalism that's coming through this, that's important. It's not just about writing press releases that companies give you and say. This is how it's supposed to be, you know. So, that's been, that's been exciting to see grow. And then the most important is are having, so if I'm here for the having party. We'll see because I haven't had an award to give to someone maybe. And then second, we're gonna be having are having live stream, which I want everyone tune into. We're actually doing on the having, so 21 blocks before the having it starts, we're counting down the top 21 moments of the epoch. We have spent months planning this, it is going to be the best live stream ever in Bitcoin history. So, we're gonna set the bar for if when you take a look at what, we did. I think at the Bitcoin magazine lab desk at the conference, it's kind of really a turning point at. This having live streams gonna be quite exciting, I think this is gonna be some of Bitcoins, gonna be proud of it. It'll be fun celebration, I can just be like, educating people on stuff. So it's gonna be this last epoch in review, which is gonna be exciting. I mean, it could be at one o'clock in the morning. So like, on April 20. So, it's been a wild ride to deal with that. So planning has meant a disaster. And once again, just like you shouldn't print a magazine because it doesn't make sense. You shouldn't do a live stream on the Bitcoin timeline, because it's a really hard thing to manage. But we do dumb crazy things anyway, because they're there. They're important. They're special. So, how can people subscribe to the magazine? What does the shirt, give us give us the value proposition of why they should be come subscribers. The you know why they should? Because everyone's got a coffee table, need a book. But more importantly, I would say, look at the design and the love that goes into this magazine. I don't think there's anything else like it, I think there's a better place that really tells Bitcoiners stories. And that when people pick up the magazine, they realize that there's something going on, they realize that this is knowing people who are passionate about this. But there's something here that's special, I stand behind that. You can buy our magazine online, we can ship it to you in a brown box, and no one knows you got it. A lot of bookstores do carry that. That's our print edition. You can obviously be. I've been surprised that how well distributed is like whether I'm in an airport and see it or Barnes and Noble or yeah. That was it, and that's another big thing. Just and by the way to ship it out of Canada. It's that once again, the amount of time that goes into this is doesn't make sense, but it's beautiful. It's great, and people yells like, it's not in Uzbekistan. Yet, I'm like oh my gosh I'm sorry. We been shipping all through Europe. So once again the print is one thing obviously online we have a lot of our content you can follow us on on X on Bitcoin magazine. Where we've won the largest handles you can yell at me online all day at at Mike Romano. So, my job is get yelled at totally perfect. And you know, once again, I think, if you want to come to the conference. The Bitcoin conference, we have one coming up in Hong Kong. We have one coming up our Nashville one. We have our one in Amsterdam, which will be our third year and then obviously in Abu Dhabi. One in Abu Dhabi is two days after f1 the f1 championship so it's gonna be fun.So, what that's December 7 or 8. Not to have that one in the summer. Correct. Right so we're having our Summer Conference in Nashville because we want to show everyone the El Salvador heat. So, really what one show is I've gotten here as hot as it is in El Salvador. We're really bringing El Salvador back when beach spirits in Nashville. Yeah, so look, once again, you can you can interact with us all there and we want you to I really appreciate anyone who is a reader of ours, we really appreciate it. And if you want to contribute to the magazine, you have something they think is important to say please share it. And that's it. Go Bitcoin Where can I follow you? What's your what's your Twitter handle? Sure, so, I'm not clever enough to have some silly name. So, I'm just Mike Germano, M-I-K-E G-E_R-M-A-N-O. You can yell me there all day long. So that's the best place to find me. Perfect. I looking forward to the next week here and everybody coming in. It's gonna be a fun one. We're very excited. Thanks again, once again, you need to get the whole team down here and let's let's make this a priority. We will get the whole Bitcoin magazine team down here. You heard it here. I promise you that and we'll be back here. Sounds good. Thank you.