How Bitcoin Is Revolutionizing Local Economies in El Salvador | Albert Wolframm

Join Live from Bitcoin Beach in El Zonte, El Salvador, as we dive deep into a fascinating conversation with Albert Wolframm, a traveler, Bitcoin enthusiast, and advocate for small, local businesses. 

Albert shares his experiences visiting El Salvador, specifically the Berlin area and its impressive rapid Bitcoin adoption among local merchants and the community. He recounts instances of seamless Bitcoin transactions using the Lightning Network, emphasizing the organic and swift spread of Bitcoin usage in the area. Albert highlights the local acceptance and integration of digital currency, noting that even businesses previously hesitant are now embracing it, contributing to a broader and more inclusive Bitcoin ecosystem.

Albert discusses his ventures, including a concept for a Bitcoin hostel designed to create a physical space for Bitcoin enthusiasts to connect, learn, and share. He also talks about his project, Small Shops, a platform aiming to promote small, local businesses by connecting them with the global Bitcoin community. This initiative seeks to support local artisans and businesses while introducing them to the benefits of Bitcoin, ultimately fostering a community that values sustainable and meaningful commerce over mass-produced goods.

Listen in as we highlight the practical, social, and economic implications of Bitcoin adoption in communities, highlighting the cryptocurrency's capacity to empower individuals and transform commerce on a local and global scale.


Browse through this quick guide to learn more about the episode:

00:01:29 - What's It Like Using Bitcoin in El Salvador? 
00:03:31 - How Easy Is It to Use Bitcoin for Everyday Transactions?
00:04:47 - What Challenges Does Bitcoin Face and How Is It Growing in El Salvador?
00:09:24 - Why Are Security and Hardware Wallets Crucial for Bitcoin Users?
00:13:59 - How Did Albert Get Into Bitcoin?
00:15:36 - Can Bitcoin Lead to a More Sustainable Future?
00:16:51 - What's the Bitcoin Community Like in Germany?
00:18:20 - Albert's Involvement in the Bitcoin Hostel Project and Related Challenges
00:25:30 - Why Supporting Local Shops with Bitcoin Matters?
00:32:24 - How Do Shops Get Onboarded to Accept Bitcoin?
00:33:16 - Is In-Person Bitcoin Shopping Better Than Online?
00:34:13 - How to Introduce Bitcoin to Merchants
00:36:12 - What Changes When Shop Owners Started Accepting Bitcoin
00:40:27 - How Is small-shops.com Growing Across Europe?
00:42:22 - Why Albert Transitioned to Full-time Work on small-shops.com
00:43:45 - What are the Challenges and Opportunities of Pricing in Bitcoin?
00:45:12 - Bitcoin or Property: Where Should You Invest Your Money?
00:48:31 - Why Should You Visit El Salvador?
00:48:58 - How Local Businesses Are Embracing Bitcoin?
00:49:45 - What Are the Latest Bitcoin Projects to Watch Out For?
00:50:03 - What Are the Biggest Challenges in Bitcoin Projects?


Find out more about Albert Wolframm and his initiatives:
https://twitter.com/Albert_Wolframm
https://twitter.com/Bitcoin_Hostel
https://www.bitcoin-hostel.com/
https://twitter.com/small_shops
https://www.small-shops.com/
https://www.instagram.com/smallshopscom/


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https://twitter.com/Bitcoinbeach
https://www.instagram.com/bitcoinbeach/
https://www.tiktok.com/@livefrombitcoinbeach
Web: https://www.bitcoinbeach.com/

Live From Bitcoin Beach

Transcript

Albert Wolframm: 0:00

No one understands.

Mike Peterson: 0:03

No, that sounds right to me.

Albert Wolframm: 0:05

Half the time people ask me what?

Mike Peterson: 0:08

My just like yes

Albert Wolframm: 0:09

Like Einstein bird. Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's a little bit of variation. I get that in Spanish all the time though. Like, say something and then like the Salvadoran next to me will say the exact same thing. I looked at him like, like, no, you said it right. They just don't expect you. In their mind, they don't think they're going to understand you. So that's like they put this block up.

Mike Peterson: 1:29

Albert, I'm glad we caught you before you head back to Germany.

Albert Wolframm: 1:32

Thank you very much for the invitation, yeah.

Mike Peterson: 1:34

It's the warm weather here chasing you back home.

Albert Wolframm: 1:38

Well, if I go back now is the weather's way better. People start smiling again and so yeah.

Mike Peterson: 1:44

Let's get the best of both worlds.

Albert Wolframm: 1:45

Yeah, I love to to start here for three months.

Mike Peterson: 1:49

Were you in El Zonte the whole time? Or where will you stay?

Albert Wolframm: 1:52

I went to the Salvador Berlin for a week.

Mike Peterson: 1:56

You did. Okay, how was it?

Albert Wolframm: 1:58

Amazing. They've also done a very great job in a very short time. I think like 10 months or so. They got to 100 merchants.

Mike Peterson: 2:04

Yeah, no, I love I mean, just what they're doing there and how fast it's happened. How organically.

Albert Wolframm: 2:09

So, the first we went to the Central Market, and I got some foods and I wanted to pay and it was amazing. I told the lady I want to pay and she didn't even ask me how they just she just taught me like lightning QR codes. And that was amazing.

Mike Peterson: 2:24

She didn't even ask? You didn't even mentioned Bitcoin?

Albert Wolframm: 2:29

I didn't even have like a Bitcoin headline. Gringo Bitcoin.

Mike Peterson: 2:36

I've heard that the weather is much cooler there. Wasn't much cooler there?

Albert Wolframm: 2:40

Yes, about 25 degree celcius. And it's not as humid so it's a really beautiful place in El Salvador. Not only in El Zonte but from other places as well. Berlin is a very good one.

Mike Peterson: 2:57

And we able to find decent accommodations there?

Albert Wolframm: 3:00

Yeah, Charlie, who's one of the leaders of those. Yeah, very nice guy and we just texted him and he organized everything for us.

Mike Peterson: 3:09

Did you stay with him or he found you?

Albert Wolframm: 3:10

We follow up some hotel and we paid some in Bitcoin. We face them in.

Mike Peterson: 3:17

But quiet got them on board, yet?

Albert Wolframm: 3:19

We went there and actually while we checking out saw him install the like a Lightning wallet. Great success.

Mike Peterson: 3:28

And there were a number of restaurants and stuff there that you can pay for Bitcoin?

Albert Wolframm: 3:31

I felt like almost all the places. So, everywhere you go and you see even locals pay with Bitcoin because they got paid in Bitcoin enough to kind of buy stuff so they might as well use it.

Mike Peterson: 3:43

It's so amazing seeing that happen so quickly. Yeah, it was such a slog here and Amazon day to get it going but I think that's how these things happen like once you see this you know, it kind of spiral out from where it starts it's so much easier because people have a roadmap to go by and they know what works and what does

Albert Wolframm: 4:03

Show they learned a lot from you. I mean they they are now in a better situation because they started basically on well I don't know the bitcoin price was like 20,000 And yeah, no one way

Mike Peterson: 4:16

Yeah, that'll have to do a little guidance once it gets into the frenzy make sure we saw that here when when bitcoin price started going crazy during the last cycle people would be like, Oh, I think I'm gonna sell my property and buy Bitcoin you know it's kind of ease into it. You know, you don't want people to become speculators and especially the ones that are like oh, I have this money that I have to pay next month but I'm gonna put it in Bitcoin until then, they start getting that speculative mindset.

Albert Wolframm: 4:43

For me it's amazing that it's still growing even in here. Last year we came we couldn't pay in Bitcoin ads like honestly, no we can.

Mike Peterson: 4:52

Are they taking Bitcoin? A lot canasta? Yeah, they were a hard nut to crack for some reason. They were like, Yeah, okay.

Albert Wolframm: 4:59

So I can't get here. I came here I took cash once at the ATM 50 bucks, and everything else is just Bitcoin. Okay?

Mike Peterson: 5:07

So you feel like in being gone a year, you've seen a major positive change? Yeah.

Albert Wolframm: 5:11

Even in the three months we've been here like in the beginning where we came here the tender next door didn't accept Bitcoin now they have a huge Bitcoin sign and accept it, and they like to accept it. And what I also see is that a lot of people use stable USD stable SATs. And sometimes the app opens it shows stable. SATs and they consciously click on Bitcoin. So that's a cool development.

Mike Peterson: 5:36

I love talking to people, because sometimes, you know, I get in my normal places I shop at so these other places that haven't taken Bitcoin in the past, I kind of have almost forgotten about him. So this is where I learned like, Oh, now I can go to lock in. That's really cool. Yeah, it's it's interesting, getting different opinions for people when they come because some people come in, they're like, super disappointed. I thought, you know, I had a number of places I couldn't use Bitcoin, and I thought it'd be everywhere and other people were like, oh, no, it was way more than I thought I only spent Bitcoin the whole time. So obviously, depends on what your expectations were coming in.

Albert Wolframm: 6:13

But I mean, as you might understand, from my accent, I'm German. So like, we are pretty, maybe realistic or even pessimistic. And so people told me about Salvador. And they were like, Yeah, I mean, it's often late, it doesn't work. And they point out the negative experience they had with Bitcoin. But then I came here and I was expecting very little came here and was like super hyped and fascinated how well it actually works.

Mike Peterson: 6:40

What's amazing now I'm I see transactions that go through faster than credit cards or cash the way they're so they're doing so many of them they just done and they're done, where you see somebody doing a credit card transaction, and I gotta bring the receipt, the sign and yeah.

Albert Wolframm: 6:56

And I mean, it just makes sense. So like, Less you probably get hit with conversion fees. You're pulling Canasta we pay. We got a good price, I think per month is like 1000 bucks or so. How do you pay those 1000 bucks, you can either pay with credit card is 55%. So it's $50 of fees, which is ridiculous. The other option would be to go to the ATM, you pay $4.50 I think to get one trans and I had to get four or would I would have needed to get. out of. So I mean, you can just send it and receive it instantly. So there's basically no argument for using Bitcoin anymore.

Mike Peterson: 7:36

So were you one of the ones that helped push them to use it or were they just used?

Albert Wolframm: 7:41

Last year, we, when we came, we paid in Fiat in the beginning. And then we had to we came with second time last year. And something didn't work. I think the machine didn't work and the ATM was empty. You know, like it's a third option. And I made her install it and I explained to her how she can send me an invoice and I've sent her the money. And she was like, well that was crazy. For maybe, I like to think that was one of the orange putting.

Mike Peterson: 8:10

No, that's great because I remember talking to her very early on. And I think she had a partner in it and they were just kind of skeptical. I didn't push it beyond that. So, I I've seen these things usually they take a little time and people come to it when they're they're ready. But it seems like now the majority of these shops. And I keep hearing this from more and more people. That people before were like negative. I guess think just yesterday somebody showed up at the office there. So, show me how do I use Bitcoin, because I'm losing all this business now. Because people want to pay in it and they just walk away.

Albert Wolframm: 8:48

I guess the price is also making.

Mike Peterson: 8:50

Yeah, anytime. The price is going up it's it's helpful. Much more than when it's going down.

Albert Wolframm: 8:56

You have Bitcoin, the price has actually gone down. I paid 2.9 million sets for the first month and a half and 2.3 million.

Mike Peterson: 9:04

Yes, deflationary society are living in here. Yeah, it's, well now our job is kind of to get back out there. And revisit with the shops and make sure that they understand the security. In that aspect, because for a lot of them, they've been taking Bitcoin for a long time. And they're still using it on their phone. And before it wasn't that much money, but now it's a significant amount of money. I'll see sometimes they they flash their phone and I'm like, did not hold that much Bitcoin and you know, custodial phone. Well, we need to get you a hardware wallet.

Albert Wolframm: 9:36

So it's also good timing that they opened now how fast.

Mike Peterson: 9:39

Yeah. Have you been in there yet?

Albert Wolframm: 9:42

Yeah, many times.

Mike Peterson: 9:43

It's pretty awesome. I'm super stoked to see that. We just did a podcast with them. Last week. So it was fun. Seeing that kind of pop up and I didn't even know that. You know, usually you hear thing these things are coming. I didn't hear anything. about that. And all of a sudden, I'm driving down the road and I see the signs in the world. So it was super awesome.

Albert Wolframm: 10:07

It's cool also to just, you know, touch those physical devices even. Though it's Bitcoin digital, it's actually having a real world connection.

Mike Peterson: 10:16

Well, I think a lot of times people to feel like stupid like. I've been in Bitcoin for a long time. And I still don't understand hardware wallets. And so they are afraid to just order one online because they don't know if they'll know how to use it. But they don't really want to ask people so that's a great environment. Where they can go in and not feel self conscious, and just say. Like, explain to me how these work. And people can play around with them and see which ones they like or not. So, it's a great addition to have here.

Albert Wolframm: 10:40

And at the Bitcoin, each meet up every every months. They give like free hardware wallets to people. And my girlfriend was actually one of the lucky ones who got one. But she needs one of the days yeah. And she struggled to install it and never had a hardware wallet. So, it was really new for her and that specific trade didn't really work. It was a little buggy.

Mike Peterson: 11:05

Some issues with it. I mean, I love the design and I love it has the camera built in. But the wheel, I don't know, I've had some issues with the wheel just kind of keep spinning. I don't know.

Albert Wolframm: 11:15

I haven't had that. But I like I tried to update and just wouldn't, like would just stop and not react. But Ronnie the guy from the Midwest or Malibu, found a solution.

Mike Peterson: 11:27

Nice to bring mine over there. So you were first here, and I was on eBay last year. And you came specifically because of Bitcoin?

Albert Wolframm: 11:39

Yeah, we wanted to travel a little bit through Guatemala. And I said, if I have a saying our travel plans, I would like to go to Amazon. So for, like, three days. So we came here for three days. And we extended it a little bit. We ended up being here for a week because we really loved it. Honestly, the pictures no offense of Zonta.

Mike Peterson: 12:02

It's hard to capture the essence.

Albert Wolframm: 12:04

Yeah, because I don't really like black sand. And it doesn't look really like a Caribbean beach or something. It's not. Yeah, for me, it doesn't look beautiful. And once we came here, it just like it was just mind blowing how nice people are how great the atmosphere is. You know, a lot of people do yoga, surf the lookout for the whole. And it's just a good place to be. And then we traveled a drought, Guatemala again. And we decided to come back earlier for Zonta to stay another week. And now we are working on some bitcoin projects. And we actually have to get some work done and don't travel. So, we decided we want to escape German winter and come to Zonta don't move to Scattergood place at like a NASA that we knew already. We know where to get good internet. We know where to work in a focused way and just be surrounded by amazing energy. And a very cool beach and food. Everything.

Mike Peterson: 13:04

So, you were you able to be productive? Because I've heard some programmers complain that it's harder to be productive here because it's the weather so nice. They want to be out surfing and doing things. They're like, I'm someplace cold and it's dark, then it's easier. Just stay in room coding all day. Is it? Fight that at all.

Albert Wolframm: 13:22

I mean, the lifestyle over here is great. And because I want to do also other things I work faster. So it's not like in a world before I was employed in an architecture office. And there you just, setting your hours, you have to good eight hours. And if you want to make a good impression, you'll stay longer. But no one really has a look at what you actually achieved. And as a self employed person the results count. And I think we're doing pretty well over here.

Mike Peterson: 13:54

Nice. So what was your entry into Bitcoin?

Albert Wolframm: 14:00

Peter Schiff. I think Peter Schiff gave me kind of like the economic understanding. How our society works. He had a very good video on the one I'm the 1%. I think he went to New York and to the Occupy Wall Street people and said, I'm part of the 1%. And have a discussion with me, I've watched those like two hours and it's hilarious. He has the best arguments. And that got me kind of in the world of then Austrian economics. And it got me kind of like interested later on into Bitcoin. But I was too shy and not technically advanced to buy it. And I only got the courage to get some to get into bitcoin through my brother, who invited me once to a steak restaurant. And I asked him, can I get everything? And he said, well, let me look at my bitcoin wallet. He looked at it and he said, Yes. And I'm like, What the fuck, are you a Bitcoin? I and he's like, yeah. And so I got interested into it as well. It was like 2017.

Mike Peterson: 15:06

So Bitcoin was doing well at that time?

Albert Wolframm: 15:08

Yeah, it was 2017. And I, my birthday is on the 17th of December. And that's like when I bought the first sets, the all time high.

Mike Peterson: 15:19

Of course. Everybody's gotta get in at the all time high. That's funny. So that was what first introduced you to it. But you already had that kind of mindset from the Peter Schiff.

Albert Wolframm: 15:36

Yeah, so I understood that we need hot money. And we have to take the money away from the government. And actually, I think if we have a hot money that's not controlled by the kind of government. And that might be even deflationary, we can have a more sustainable future. We can start saving money, we can start saving resources, and we can start saving our energy. And I think people who are living a Bitcoin standard already. They understand that if they save money, they can, have a better future. Yet, they don't consume as much. They don't buy cheap products and throw them away after using them like one time. So I think it kind of have a greater impact.

Mike Peterson: 16:22

I think kind of surprised that I would have thought that the Germans would have been more prepped to come into Bitcoin. Because of the history in Germany and Germans have always been about having strong hard money. I know even when it went to the euro, a lot of Germans were like, what in the world are we doing? We're going to trust the Italians and the Spanish to be part of this, you know, block that creates his currency. So I would think it would be natural for them to want to go to Bitcoin. Well, why do you think that hasn't

Albert Wolframm: 16:57

I think it has happened. I think the Bitcoin happened more? community in Germany is one of the strongest in the whole world. Yeah, we have per capita, we have the highest amount of bitcoin nodes running.

Mike Peterson: 17:11

I did not know that. Okay, maybe they're just not that vocal.

Albert Wolframm: 17:14

Yeah, probably not. But we had we had the first bar accepting Bitcoins. First, beer payments, first, wheats, first, everything, burgers and 77. And now we have a decentralized community called a non sponsor, which means 21. Okay. And basically everyone can be involved and just start a meetup. And there's like a website with a map. And they've probably have hundreds of meetups. The meetups in Berlin are also very, you know, you can basically find every week and meet up and it's full of people. The restaurants are always dominated by 5060 Bitcoiners. And they come from all sorts of different backgrounds, it's very fascinating to see very technical people. People from finance, or just like, drug addicts, communists or politicians, and it's very cool.

Mike Peterson: 18:08

That's good to know. Because I don't know, for some reason, I just assumed there wasn't much happening I told you before you should come to Berlin, the atmosphere there. that is awesome. It's a good energy. So you finally bought Bitcoin through your brother? And then you were mentioning earlier, you got involved with a Bitcoin hostel project? What how did that develop? And was that the first kind of we were looking for a way to be involved in Bitcoin with the work that you do?

Albert Wolframm: 18:39

Yeah. So well, I studied architecture. And even during my studies, I already tried to kind of do something with Bitcoin. And I didn't fully understand it yet. So I wanted to make an archy coin. So some bitcoin where you can develop property and the architect can be. You know, get part of the revenue of the of that house. Which is obviously not possible, as I know now. But that was kind of like the first idea. And then, over time, I was thinking more of how to get involved and what to do. And the Bitcoin hostel would be a great idea. To, take my skills as an architect build really some physical place for Bitcoiners. And tell people get into the space, make them understand that Bitcoin is really something that actually is not bad for the environment. That's actually not only used by criminals, and it's basically just better money. And we wanted to price things in Bitcoin and said, insets, so people really understand the language of money.

Mike Peterson: 19:41

And it's the ideas. Is this a place that people would be like a normal hostel. That people are just passing through? Or would it be more of a place that people are there for longer stints of time? Working on projects?

Albert Wolframm: 19:54

Yeah, so the idea would be to say. Well, this is actually just reg allot nice hostel. Where people can spend good time, but they can also get the values of Bitcoin. Which obviously is subjective. But in my opinion, Bitcoin is something that people might want to eat organic foods, people want to have a long time preference. So, they want to be healthy, they want to maybe meditate, they don't want to do sports, they want to communicate, and all those things can can be done over there. And then at the same time, people should not just have fun. But by having fun, they should create memorable moments and, tell their friends and family. The bill over there doesn't cost $2, It costs like 3000 sets. And really understand that if you stay there for longer, we wanted to do also like co working spaces. And you can stay there for many months. You basically think in Bitcoin, you can you know, the prices, what interest you don't know them and Fiat anymore. That that's kind of like the idea. I started it, I think in 2021 at a very bad time, or 22. Very bad timing. And I had the initiative starting hours, but I didn't get enough traction to really get things going. Now, more people are interested.

Mike Peterson: 21:17

I think you have some preliminary designs, can we throw those up Paco? So the idea was to make it a place that's very welcoming, that that kind of encourages community and their interaction?

Albert Wolframm: 21:31

Yeah, so basically, this is an old Roman house villa. And I'm seeing you know, as an architect, many architects are in love with glass and concrete. And most normal people are not. And because it's always looks the same everywhere. I might have no idea wherever, whether it's in New York, or in Dubai, or in Berlin. So, that all looks the same. And what they build, the old Romans is something that. I guess every normal person just likes, no one goes there and says, well, those columns are ugly. Those gardens are ugly, with a little waterfall and the naked babies. So, I think that could be a good inspiration for a version of the Bitcoin hoster. It holds forever, can become like 2000 years old or so. And it's a space that is really made of, you know, it's quality, it's very communicative people like to just hang out there. And that could be an architectural idea. And I've made a sketch of how that could look like. This is just without going into much into details, but a lot of bedrooms, that can be for for all sorts of people. Whether it's couples, whether it's single travelers, or people would like to stay there for longer. And then what's really important is to have really communicative areas outside and inside. It has a central garden should have, and decentral garden.

Mike Peterson: 23:09

Decentralized, centralized garden.

Albert Wolframm: 23:12

I mean, this is just one idea, one of many ideas. Another idea could be to just start out with a lower budget. Where we would need to just get some land and start out with glamping. Just two or three tents and maybe some spots for people to park their bands and then just communicate and talk about Bitcoin. And then from there, it can start out to grow and become bigger.

Mike Peterson: 23:39

So, is this something that you had an idea of actually participating in the running of, or just helping design?

Albert Wolframm: 23:45

So, the idea would be to get a lot of people together. And you know, all together, find a place. Maybe someone already has a place and says, well, actually, I'm available to rent that out for you guys. You know, other people would like to physically build it. I want to make architectural competition. So, architects could also get involved and you know, everyone who has a talent is welcome. And we have a telegram group, they are welcome to join and put some ideas. Follow us on Twitter.

Mike Peterson: 24:17

So, is there been any, like concrete places that have been proposed? So, it could possibly move forward? Or is it still in the dreaming stage?

Albert Wolframm: 24:28

No, actually, last week, I was talking to a guy in Portugal who has a similar idea. And also he said that he wants to build a community and he wants to not make it alone. But actually wants to find people who want to do it with him. Maybe, someone can make, a pizza place and someone makes a bar. And then the next one makes the hostel itself and the next one. Even like a co working space, and you have a lot of you know. Those hippie communities around the world. They all fail because they all fucking socialists. We will make it in a capitalistic way, that's people go there. They get involved, but they don't do it because while they do it, because they are laughing, and passion to Bitcoin. But in a financial sense, it should make financial sense. Yes, that's that. Yeah.

Mike Peterson: 25:15

No, I love that. So, if people want to kind of follow along with this. What are you guys on Twitter or is it a telegram group?

Albert Wolframm: 25:23

Yeah. Twitter is Bitcoin hostile. I think you could find Twitter at the telegram as well.

Mike Peterson: 25:28

Okay. So, this came out, but originally. You were working on another project that was trying to encourage people to shop at small local shops. And I think actually, maybe we started with that. And then you will you explain it. I'm gonna butcher it.

Albert Wolframm: 25:46

So yeah, basically, after I finished my studies as an architect. I traveled the world a little bit. I actually met my girlfriend in Indonesia.

Mike Peterson: 25:58

Is she Indonesian?

Albert Wolframm: 25:59

No, she's a Thai. Yeah, but we both like to travel a lot.

Mike Peterson: 26:03

So, you were in Indonesia. did you guys meet?

Albert Wolframm: 26:06

Nusa Lembongan?

Mike Peterson: 26:08

Really?

Albert Wolframm: 26:09

Yeah.

Mike Peterson: 26:10

So, that's where I went on my honeymoon.

Albert Wolframm: 26:12

Really?

Mike Peterson: 26:12

Yeah. In fact, my wife almost drowned the first night. Because we went, how they have those big tides that go in there. We went out snorkeling, and we didn't have fins or anything. And then all of a sudden, we got beyond the, the inner reef. And we just start getting sucked out. And she she wasn't that strong of a swimmer. And so I had to swim for like a half an hour. I found this like Japanese surfer that didn't speak any English. And I'm like my wife, she's over there. And they like went and got a boat and went and picked her up. But that's so funny, because that's a tiny island.

Albert Wolframm: 26:44

It's a tiny island next to Bali.

Mike Peterson: 26:46

Yeah, I don't know. We were I mean, this was I'm old. So, this was what 20 should know how long I've been married. 25 years? No. 22 years. 25. Hopefully, my wife does not watch this one. I'm not doing the math. But, yeah, we were there a long time ago. I don't know how much it's changed. But at that time, there was like no cars on the island. It was like, super well.

Albert Wolframm: 27:14

I can't remember costs. I remember a lot of Muppets.

Mike Peterson: 27:17

I think we paid like $8 a night for this two storey like bungalow? Like right on the water. That the great shipwrecks the surf break right out in front.

Albert Wolframm: 27:30

Yeah, I paid $5 a lot.

Mike Peterson: 27:32

Nice, so it hasn't gotten that much more expensive?

Albert Wolframm: 27:35

Valaria probably paid way more. But yeah.

Mike Peterson: 27:40

That'sfunny. I hardly met any people who have been to that island, let alone that's funny. You met.

Albert Wolframm: 27:46

It's a beautiful, it's a very beautiful. And then, we traveled a lot around a little bit. Always like traveling. And but what we saw is that basically, many places around the world have the same, shopping malls and you find H & M everywhere. And Primark and it's just like, then even the clothing they sell is like, exactly the same everywhere. And that's kind of like a pity. And there are websites where you can find, local museums, tourist attractions, restaurants, and stuff like that. But I think small shops, actually something that a lot of people also want to find. There's simply no website.

Mike Peterson: 28:28

And it's hard for those small shops to survive if people can't find them. So there, there is that demand, but it's hard for that the demand and that supply to meet each

Albert Wolframm: 28:36

Yeah, so we Valeria and I moved together to other. So people can go to the map, and then they can click on the Berlin. And then lockdowns happens. Pretty instantly. And, you know, people came to malarious place she was working actually in the shop. And tourists were coming to her and asking her, where can I find small local shops in Berlin? Because it's not obvious where they are. And she went online, and she's not from Berlin. So, she didn't have anything in mind. And she couldn't find a website. And then we said, well, okay, fuck it, let's just create a website ourselves. Starting with Berlin, as I said, the lockdown to happen. So a lot of shops had something to say. So even though we didn't have a website, or any programming skills, so we went to different shops. And asked them, can we make interviews with you? And they loved it, they wanted to tell their story. Because apparently, no one gave a fuck about them. And, you know, that's how we started to do the first interviews, and we had a map and just put the locations in there. And that was pretty simple, built with weeks. And that's it. location and then see the interviews and see that. Yeah, it wasn't that advanced, but you could click on some things. But yeah, we are basically just a feed of views. And then on a different page and map with all the pins and that was is like really nice. Yeah. And we did the interviews that was really time consuming. Because you know, you have to think of the questions. We did it in first as a video, then you had to edit everything. And then we decided to just send them written questions. And they had to send it back. We had to get go back and forth. And it just took a lot of time. We were like full time employees doing some other things, and that wouldn't pay us. So, I mean, we just did it as a passion. And it kind of shied it away a little bit. We were doing sometimes doing it other times. And can we kind of wanted to get away from Berlin, and that's how then the idea of the Bitcoin hostel came. That was that well, fuck it. We don't want to live in Berlin anymore. We just want to go to some nice place, have a good life. Communicate, hack, people have human and to actually be humans.

Mike Peterson: 30:49

And I think lockdowns really made people realize how much how important that is. Taken for granted.

Albert Wolframm: 30:56

I've been there once it's taken away from you. They said they wanted to save lives, but the lockdown sexually? I mean, what is life life is communicating with hugging people.

Mike Peterson: 31:05

Well, and there's so many studies show that people are healthier if they're in community. But now, you have all these people that are sick and dying, of course.

Albert Wolframm: 31:14

I mean, they close down the gym. So, no one can tell me. Crazy contact me that this is anything to do with health. But yeah, we got to kind of pissed off that situation. And we wanted to do the Bitcoin house. So, wanted to see if some people might like it. Actually, we got 2000 followers on Twitter. So actually, there was good interest. But we couldn't finance it. And we're like, that was like the main issue. But it opened a lot of doors for us. And we got invited to do several podcasts. And one of the podcasts was by some guys who actually also did a start up. And the idea was to onboard people to Bitcoin by installing full nodes to their shop. And it's a very technical and very annoying for anyone who has lightning.

Mike Peterson: 32:15

Pick winners don't even do that. So, yeah, I think you're gonna go to different shops and get them.

Albert Wolframm: 32:23

So, they're very ambitious. That doesn't have happened, but they had one shop. So, there was at least some success. But they've been Bitcoiners before, and they really wanted it. So, it's not really that you onboard. You know, shops that are not interested to Bitcoin onto something that's super technical. But they did it. And they had, obviously the technical knowledge to do it. And we didn't have the technical knowledge, but we actually had shops. So, at some point, we decided to join forces, get together and create this website called small shops.com. Where we basically, so people, not just the locations, but now it's developing into a marketplace. Where people can actually click on the pin, and get the direction, get discounts, if they buy through our website online, or get cashback if they buy in the physical shop.

Mike Peterson: 33:16

So, how do the logistics work for you guys? If they buy online? Do you just pass that along to the store and then the store has to ship it?

Albert Wolframm: 33:24

We basically connect by, since our work.

Mike Peterson: 33:26

As that worked? Or is that been I know for stores that aren't used to shipping things that sometimes

Albert Wolframm: 33:30

Many don't really like shipping. That's why that can be a challenge, how's that been? I think they really like also our website. Because, we tell people to actually go to the physical locations. They don't have to ship stuff, and they don't have to refund stuff. People just go in there, they get a proper education, can touch the material. And then it's way better for the clients and but also the businesses. So, that's what we are doing. Tell the people to go there and they have to like just do their job as a normal.

Mike Peterson: 34:04

Okay. So, there is an online option, but you're trying to push them to actually get into the store. So, I am partially. And then where does Bitcoin fit into this?

Albert Wolframm: 34:13

Well, the idea is to onboards first of all the bias. Everyone can pay every product with Bitcoin because, we handle the payments. And then we want to onboard also the merchants to Bitcoin by showing them in a playful way how to accept Bitcoin. They might get like for micro rewards for uploading content for screen time for any favorable action. They can get small amounts of Bitcoin sunsets. And then they can use that for tipping maybe other shops or if they read an interview that we've done. We've been doing previously they can tip it, and that's how they kind of understand the value of it. And then we can also give discount of people who pay in Bitcoin. So, kind of like in a very non toxic way. We want to introduce to people who really might not even not be interested. But, even opposing Bitcoin because they say it's killing the environment. And it's, you know, just us criminals. And all of a sudden you go on a website that says, well, we sell eco friendly products. And you can buy socks

Mike Peterson: 35:17

All the baggage that they maybe had when people with Bitcoin.

Albert Wolframm: 35:25

Yeah, makes sense. And it's just like a mentioned Bitcoin. better way to pay. It's cheaper, we have to pay. We're using Stripe for Fiat payments, and they charge about 3%. We take 15% of all the products as a commission. And if you take 3% of that, that's like 20%. That goes away from our revenue. So, if we can bring that to close to zero, that's obviously way better. And so we are incentivized to bring the people to educate customers to pay in Bitcoin. And to educate the shops to accept Bitcoin. So, that's our way of onboarding people into the Bitcoin world.

Mike Peterson: 36:08

And most of the shops so far, what is what's been their response to that?

Albert Wolframm: 36:12

So, one story I like to tell is, when the first time our programmer came to Berlin to visit us. He obviously wanted to see the shops. He wanted to get to know me and Valaria and wanted to get the shops that we are promoting. So, we took a bicycle, and we're driving around Berlin. And we went to the first shop that was part of our website. And, you know, we talked to each other, and she asked us, how did you get to know each other? I was telling that story with a Bitcoin hostel in the podcast. And she's like, wait, isn't she was asking all this standard stuff? Isn't Bitcoin just for criminals? isn't that bad for the environment? And we talked about Bitcoin for like 10 minutes or so or 20 minutes. And then next topic, I was looking around the shop and I found some nice jewelry. I wanted to buy something for Valeria. But, I didn't have any Fiat. So, I told Leon, can I pay you in Bitcoin? And you pay that to Henrik, the owner of Casaya. And in Henrik, said, well, actually, why don't you just pay me straight in Bitcoin? Because no, it's not for criminals. And no, it's just a good way to pay. And, yeah, I actually bought some jewelry with pecan in her store. She's now on BTC maps, you can we can also buy in her place. And yeah, but that's just one anecdote of how people react oftentimes to what we are doing. And we don't really want to talk about Bitcoin all the time. That's why it's called small shops. It's not like Bitcoin marketplace or so. Because we really want to focus on people who might be even like on the left side of society. And have their views and just show them it's very useful. It's cheap, it's instant.

Mike Peterson: 38:00

Something that's very fair, you don't have these big corporations taking all these fees.

Albert Wolframm: 38:04

Yeah, I mean, when I'm talking to people. I'm like, why are you defending? Well, first of all, well, why are you defending you know, the pharmaceutical industry? And why are you defending another fucking thing?

Mike Peterson: 38:16

Are you a processor?

Albert Wolframm: 38:17

Are you aware of what you're saying? Like, there isn't money. There is no control by any government or any large corporation. You can use it to buy eco products, for example. So, yeah, that's, that's something that we want to do. And actually, next month, we will start the marketplace. And the way it works is basically here's the map. You can scroll down the feed, you can filter by different cities and categories. And then you can click on one of the shops you like. And, learn about the production methods we've got next slide. You can really see the faces behind the brands. You can really understand what you know, what patient they've put in there. A lot of people, they're not just selling products, but they have shop interior. And they put a lot of love and the production method is something, oftentimes it's made by hand. And sometimes there's a little mistake, but you get something that's made with love for you. But you buy not just a product but really a story. And then you can scroll down and you will find the location with the opening hours. You can go out in the in the real beautiful world. And buy the product over there or you can just buy it on our website. Or you can just you know, have a look at the products on our website and go pick them up in the physical shop. Or, anything like that. And finally, you pay everything in Bitcoin. At the checkout, you get discounts if you use the referral code of a friend. And if you go to the physical shop, you just purchase the product as you would normally do. And then later, upload the photo of the receipt to our website. To get 5% cashback, if you want Bitcoin and that's the receipt we can use to prove to the shop owner. That's we are charging a 15% commission on that specific purchase. So that's the idea.

Mike Peterson: 40:14

And so far the shops that are have been on boarded, are they like in? You know, a few different hubs? Are they kind of all over the world or what's the what's the geography of the stores?

Albert Wolframm: 40:27

So we started out in Berlin, we have more than 50 shops already in Berlin. But now we are spreading out more into other European cities like Paris, Lisbon, Barcelona, Milan, Rome. There's a conference in Malta now so we got a bunch of shops and Marta, Munich, Hamburg. But, we got also the first shop now here now El Zonte and one in Guatemala.

Mike Peterson: 40:52

Okay, what shop here and it was in El Zonte?

Albert Wolframm: 40:54

So embarrassing. I forgot the name of the shop. They sell surf bikinis. And next to like Canasta. Beautiful, colorful surfware for women. Check it on small shops.

Mike Peterson: 41:19

No, I mean, I think this would be a natural place for you guys to have a number of locations. I know to at Garden Hotel, they sell like, designer purses. I can't remember her name. But but she's, the mind behind them all. They're not just purchased from somewhere else. So yeah.

Albert Wolframm: 41:38

I mean, that's that's the idea. things pop up. It's basically a mix of a travel guide and a marketplace. And I think if you go to a city or a place that you don't know yet. Let's say you come from the States, you go to Atlanta for the first time, you forgot your pair of sunglasses. Or so you want to buy it maybe from some local artisanal thing. It's not just some random sunglasses. But, something that you just like to use many times. And like to think about, like, where you bought it. Maybe you've got an interaction with a producer. Maybe you can see the production and that's a whole different thing. Then go to H & M, and just buy something that breaks down after a year.

Mike Peterson: 42:22

So, what's the timeline for you to be able to devote yourself full time to this?

Albert Wolframm: 42:28

Well, last year, I've actually worked full time on it.

Mike Peterson: 42:31

You have.Okay, so you're not only you're working as an architect.

Albert Wolframm: 42:34

I'm no longer working. Like, I quit my job. And I'm doing this now full time. I might need to get some side shops on the side just to finance my life. But, I've decided I'm free person, I want to spend my time the way I want. I want to build something. I want to be in the Bitcoin space. And yeah, I think we just have one life and we should use it to improve Bitcoin and have a good life.

Mike Peterson: 43:05

Do you think you'll be back to El Zonte next winter?

Albert Wolframm: 43:09

The likelihood is very high. I would like to, I was actually asking some people. If they know property to rent, or even to buy. Maybe the Bitcoin hostel should be here.

Mike Peterson: 43:22

Yeah, I think that there's a lot of potential areas that for that. And a lot of people that are interested in doing that. So maybe even from this podcast, we'll get some, some people that have land there have capital or whatever that want to.

Albert Wolframm: 43:36

It would be great. I think it's super important that we are now transitioning to a unit of account, pass of the money and a percent. I think everything should be really priced in Bitcoin. Obviously, we have to be realistic. And we have to think like, if the fluctuations are too high.We have to find a way of adjusting it. And restaurant we do the Bitcoin meetup in Berlin, we have, those tables that those screens that you had in our pots. Yeah, you know, those flipping stuff. You could do that for the price if you want to. It's a cool atmosphere. But it's also a good way to stay flexible.

Mike Peterson: 44:16

Yeah, no, that's obviously that's a challenge because a lot of people. Their supplies and stuff are still priced in Fiat. And so if it moves too much. And either direction, because if the price is going up, then some people think is too expensive. You do have to kind of adjust, but I think it's very important that we get people thinking. And SATs, hopefully and, you know, 5 to 10 years from now. It'll just be normal to price and SAT's. And that we'll have to think, to price that to go back to dollars. We'll have to, that will be the tough thing to do.

Albert Wolframm: 44:48

But it's actually true. I mean, if the price goes up. Then you might be willing to purchase more things. Maybe, when the price is down, do you try to not invest in a lot of things? I mean, I'm now thinking about getting a new laptop. But since I believe we're not yet in the bull markets. I might be able to hold back on that for another half year or a year or so.

Mike Peterson: 45:15

I know, there's a lot of people looking to buy land their properties here. And those aren't they, but are El Salvador in general, but they're that same thing. They like I want to buy it now. But I think I'll be able to get so much more in a year from now. So I'm like, find somebody that will let you do a downpayment. And you know, tell me, I'll pay the balance, 15 months or something. You noticed different kinds of ways

Albert Wolframm: 45:38

I mean, I was always, like, I grew up in a around there. family, where, like, my whole family was based on property. My dad bought pieces of land and developed houses on there. And then sold them or rented them. So, for me, that was always normal to do that. I wanted to do that as well later on. But now, I'm kind of more thinking, well, actually, if I have to buy something. Why would I buy anything else than Bitcoin? And I met some people in Berlin. Tim is his name here that he's building a hostel there as well. He's renting out a beautiful place with a view on the jungle and volcanoes. And it is really remarkable place with loads of flowers and Liverpool and pool table and barbecue and several houses on it. He pays $750 per month. Wow, I mean, I paid almost double in my little house in Berlin. So yeah, rent out places and buy bitcoin.

Mike Peterson: 46:44

I've wrestled with that a lot. That psychologically, it's hard. Because when you rent a place you want to, you want to invest in it. You want to put money into it and do those things. A lot of times, your landlord doesn't want to pay for that. So it's, like wrestle with, but a lot of times, you are still better off doing that. And holding your wealth in Bitcoin.

Albert Wolframm: 47:04

I mean, it depends, obviously, how much you have, at some point. I'm pretty sure it makes sense to also buy some property. But from my point of view, if you are limited, and you have the choice between Bitcoin and property, and you have to choose one of those two.

Mike Peterson: 47:18

I think for like your personal live. I think it's not all about the financial aspect. There's nice to know you own it, that you're not going to get removed. But beyond that, acquiring investment properties, I think, makes more sense.

Albert Wolframm: 47:33

Well, I'm not sure if it's guaranteed, that if you bought a property, you can always stay in there. I mean, in Germany, we just had a they voted on something that they were asking. Like, if a company has more than 1000 flats or something, should all the flats that are more than 1000 go to the government. So, they robbing people, even though is their property. So, that's kinda like, I mean, that's such realism. And and the same goes with the property tax. Which is basically a rent,so, I'm not sure if buying is really smart at that point.

Mike Peterson: 48:13

Yeah, it's a nice thing at least so far. There's not really property tax in El Salvador. So, that's makes it more compelling for people. So, anything else that you want to talk about? Or make sure people know about what you're doing there? Or what they need to do when they come to El Salvador to visit?

Albert Wolframm: 48:32

Well, first of all, everyone should come to El Salvador. It's really beautiful place. Even if you're not a Bitcoin, or you can just come here have an amazing time. I've spent many beautiful weeks with some friends over here who are not even interested in Bitcoin. They just surf and sit at a bonfire, do yoga, stuff like that.

Mike Peterson: 48:51

Have they recognize that it's easier to use Bitcoin? Then tried to carry cash and stuff around? Still in that mindset. Alright. We'll be following that. And hopefully

Albert Wolframm: 48:58

One time, I went out with a friend of mine. And she had a pizza, she wanted to pay in dollars. She had a $20 bill and she wanted to pay, but the restaurant didn't have any change. So, she could actually not pay in dollars, and we had to pay for her bill. Which is like what the fuck? I can't pay in USD, if I can pay in Bitcoin. What's going on? So yeah, I think people are realizing that it has a value. And I actually, I mean, I gave many people in the hospital, some bitcoin and they gave me Fiat chip coin. And they're realizing wow, that's instant. It's super fast. No KYC. And so it is a it is a big value for people who are not interested in it. Yet, but get curious by it. So yeah, everyone should come to El Salvador. And if they want to catch up on some of my product projects, it's either Bitcoin hyphen, hostel.com or small hyphen shops.com. And you can find me on Twitter. this the hostile talk will, something will come to fruition here. Because I know, I've heard at least a dozen different people talk about that idea here. So, hopefully we can see something come to fruition. And I love the small shop thing, because I keep saying I hate it everywhere you go. That's the same big shops that have the same stuff. So to see local people that are really putting love and uniqueness into the product exposure. I love that. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to do both product projects at the same time. From for now, I'm kind of like swinging back and forth from one to another. I'm focused right now on small shops.com. We're actually looking for investors. So they can just reach out to you? They can reach out to me and I would like to build something and improve the Bitcoin ecosystem. Even though it's already good, but there's still a lot of work to do.

Mike Peterson: 50:55

Perfect. Yeah. Well, I hope you have a good flight back to Germany. I hope it's warmed up enough. You stay here in El Salvador long enough. You become accustomed? Wearing shorts.

Albert Wolframm: 51:08

Very soon, I want to go back. My dog is missing me. But, apart from that well from friends and family, obviously. But yeah, it's El Salvador is really a place where it's like full of energy. Everyone wants to build something. It's super inspiring. And so I'll be back for sure.

Mike Peterson: 51:28

All right. We'll look forward to it. Nice. Sweet.