How Bitcoin Technology Actually Saves Democracy And Election Integrity | Carliño

Live from Bitcoin Beach in El Zonte, El Salvador, we're diving into an interesting discussion of how Bitcoin can be a powerful tool to maintain election integrity through timestamping and immutable election data. Our guest, Carliño, shares his insights on Bitcoin as used in real-world situations beyond the financial systems, and how Guatemala became the first country to protect its election transparency using this revolutionary application of Bitcoin.

How can Bitcoin be used to protect election integrity? With Bitcoin’s blockchain technology, the timestamp of election data is possible using the blocks in Bitcoin as a reference for time. It’s not prone to fraud or manipulation and so, provides transparency in the voting process and strengthens the democratic power of a nation, as has been evident in Guatemala. This technological application remains true to the basic principles of Bitcoin of decentralization, transparency, and resistance to censorship.

The importance of resistance to censorship also happens to be very personal for Carliño. He and his family experienced being on the watch list of the United States Treasury Department without warning or due process. While in the middle of baseless, unjust sanctions, they have to let go of their employees and close their business. Carliño declares how the government has the upper hand and that decentralization is necessary to achieve financial sovereignty.

The conversation shifts to his life in Guatemala and what else Bitcoin can do for their country. As someone who grew up at a time of political unrest in Guatemala, the revolution truly empowered their citizens to live out their democracy, fully participative in overseeing their voting process. Now, with the help of Bitcoin to audit their elections, the citizen’s participation is rewarded with Satoshis. And this is a big step towards Bitcoin adoption. Carliño hopes that Central America becomes the first region to experience and maximize Bitcoin leading them to prosperity and better quality of life for its citizens.

There is so much to unpack in this episode, from Bitcoin’s contribution to election transparency and what led to Carliño’s belief in Bitcoin’s potential and the great possibilities it can be used outside of financial sectors. Make sure to listen until the end!


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In the case of elections, this is extremely valuable. Because as elections are happening, if you can timestamp all of that data as it's coming in, and as it's created, you've essentially created forensic information using Bitcoin that can allow people to determine what the probabilities are that a certain document is real or fake, you effectively reduce 99% of the attack surface of an election to very, very small moment in time. The beginning. Carliño, It's good to see you back here at Azonte. Mucho gusto, Mike. When was the last time you were here? Was that a year ago? Ah, something. Yeah, probably a year ago. Well, no more actually. I just remember you had this like cryptic conversation with me that you know, you were starting this new thing, and you are going to have to go off the radar for a while. And now we're here to talk about that cryptic thing that you were involved with. Popping back up? So, Bitcoin protecting elections. I came for democracy, but I stayed for Bitcoin. So, I'm pretty excited to delve into this. It's going to probably be way too technical for me. So you're gonna talk to me like I'm a kindergartener - like my kids talk to me. But, excited to dive into this. And see, I know, there's something that you've been super passionate about from the very beginning. I think even the first time you guys came before the Bitcoin law was passed here, and you guys came to visit us here, you were talking about this project. I found out about your work in December 2020, when we were part of the la Bitcoin Blockchain for Humanity Awards. And so yeah, thanks to following this passion, this itch that I have to scratch, I ended up finding out about what you've been building here. And so, it's what led me to come in April 2021 and meet with you before it all. You guys just randomly showed up. And that was before, now of course, people are coming here all the time. But at that time, we hadn't had that many visitors. So it was you guys were the first kind of Central Americans that had come. There had been people from the US but it was for me, it was kinda like, 'Wow, we got people traveling from Guatemala now to kind of see what's happened in here.' So that was really exciting. But yeah, love to hear your Bitcoin story. How you were first exposed to it and how you made this connection with how to protect elections. Well, connection to the elections came a little later. But the short version of how I came to Bitcoin is Guatemala has a university that is Austrian economics inspired, called Universidad Francisco Marroquin and the dean or the head of the university was a libertarian, Austrian economic school. So, they were part of that first wave of people that through the libertarian circles found out about Bitcoin. I don't want to get off a roll. But I'm bringing up something that I am curious about on a personal level. So how did that It's the story of Muso Ayau, a very famous Guatemalan, where I'm from, who studied at the University of Chicago under Hayek. And so he was a student of Hayek, and his family passed away now. He studied back in the mid-20th century. And I must say I was very interesting to have been a student of Hayek. And so when he graduated, and he moved back to Guatemala, his family was like, alright, you know, take the wheels of the enterprise. He says, no, no, no. I love that you have the wheels of the enterprise, you keep doing it, but just give me the profits, I'm going to start a university that's going to be of the school that I'm a part of. And so he founded Universidad Francisco Marroquin ufm.edu, and it's the only Austrian economics University in Latin America as far as I know. And so at that time, Guatemala had a national university that's 300 years old get started in Guatemala? Because Guatemala does not seem that was a leader in academia but have been falling down the fiat rabbit hole and the quality was going down. And so this to me like a libertarian bastion that would you see a school like private university kind of filled that niche of people looking for quality education. And so over the past 50 years or this sprout up? So? so, the Guatemalan elite have sent their kids to that school and if they didn't go study abroad. Ah huh, but that's considered like the top school in Well, for certain things. So there's another university Guatamala. that's more from like the USAID realm, which is called the Seattle VI. And then there's Catholic University, Landívar, and there's a bunch of schools. How big like in a graduating class? I don't know. I was part of the MBA program at one point and MBA in English or in Spanish? quit halfway, because I realized that MBA programs are money sinkhole, and you'd be better off just starting putting that money into your business. So a lot of the classes are in English. I was part of their second MBA program, because they have two competing ones. It's called the Acton MBA. And I took this course called ‘Life of Meaning’, and that really changed my perspective on stuff and realized that I was wasting my capital that I could use to start a business and it's funny, you go to school, you realize it was actually a really unique program. Yeah, but they were probably fine with that. Because if that's what they're leaning. Well, at the business school, though, so they were there's legends of a dude coming to Marroquin and giving a Bitcoin talk back in like 2010 or something and literally like handing out paper wallets to all attendees with five Bitcoin in it. Should you not and so. None of them how old are they lost. I've yet to find someone that's like and I've still got that. And so then there was also I've got a friend who was in the finance MBA program, who at one point, that you got for extra credit in your MBA program, they would give you Bitcoin. And again, though, not all of them, but that's how Guatemala got exposed to Bitcoin, very early on through this. And is that, are they connected to the Liberland? Liberland. So, there was Francisco Marroquin who has a very colored history. And I I can suggest some folks to come in and speak to it. I'm not a very good historian of And is that because the school has changed what they're Marroquin, just from my perspective is always seen as it's been throughout my life seen as the elite school within Guatemala. And so yeah, that's where the elites send their students. And so the hope was that over time, you know, the Libertarian Austrian school would rub off on the elite. In practice, what's happened is the opposite in my personal opinion. teaching or it just hasn't really? There's a lot of things in Guatemala that is very complicated. But I guess if you had to pinpoint to one cause, in my opinion, it's that the schools have filled a political role and that they literally sit on certain boards that have the power to elect certain government officials. And so, the school was founded from the beginning with a very activist approach. The reason Guatemala is a statistical aberration in terms of monetary policy, and I invite all Bitcoiners to look at all world currencies over the past 20 years. And you will find that the Guatemalan Quetzal, our national currency, is an aberration particularly when you compare it across America the reason was that Musso the founder of the school was very politically active and was able to set locks into our central bank. And so, money issuance is prohibited in Guatemala. That’s a big reason why the Guatemalan Quetzal is disturbingly stable. And I always assumed that it had some type of artificial peg. Yes, if the Guatemalan Quetzal were allowed to float, it would actually appreciate versus the dollar, as opposed to the rest of Latin America that is suffering from hyperinflatio. Guatemala would actually be stuck in a deflationary cycle that would bankrupt our export industry, and would further cause even more joblessness and increase migratory patterns. And so they've found, in my opinion, a hack where they're not allowed to print money but they are allowed to play with all the dollars that are being sent by migrants to keep the essentially, inflate the currency to keep it from appreciating bankrupting exporters. Do you think that's part of the reason? Because I found in general Guatemala seems cheaper than El Salvador. Do you think No, I think that's probably the Venezuelan influence over the of that? past 20 years in El Salvador and then sort of just the state coming in and paying a bunch of people a bunch of free money whereas in Guatemala, we've always just had a larger industry and larger workforce. And so kind of the beachhead over the Central American economy were always the big dogs. Yeah. Interesting. I didn't mean to get off on that tangent. But I've always heard these little bits and pieces about that university. And so I was like, alright here's my chance to find out. It's the story that I am very happy to go into. Okay, so back to what you were originally talking about. So, let's see. As part of the elites in Guatemala that was exposed to Bitcoin early on but didn't really think about it and I was working at a company. I was born and raised in Guatemala, went to school in the States, Chapel Hill in North Carolina, and back to Guatemala, and started working with a company that overnight was placed. What type of school did you go to a bilingual school in Guatemala? It's a bilingual school in Guatemala City called Colegio Interamericano and it had American, United Statesian, and Canadian teachers since kindergarten. Yeah. I mean, you don't have much, you don't really have an accent at all. So, my grandmother is originally from Illinois. And my mom was raised in both the US and Guatemala. And so technically, my mother's tongue is English. I would speak English with my mom and my cousins who lived in the States, and then at school in my English classes. But in Spanish with my brothers and my dad. I was always the weirdo. So I moved back home, started working with a company. Sorry, I'm gonna keep interrupting here because I'm curious to your history. Did you have any thoughts when you finish school there of staying in the US? Did you know all along that you weren't going to come back to Guatemala? So, my dad also studied in the States. And so I was raised with this concept of moving back and giving back like 'noblesse oblige' would be what my mom would tell me. Nobility obligates you. If those with privilege and education don't invest in the culture then we're going to the country which will definitely not going anywhere. So, the brain drain idea. And my dad moved back home and started a company. And so I was like very big part of my grandfather as well as he studied abroad and moved back to Guatemala. And so we have this history of many generations of starting things and being involved in locally. So, I started economics and entrepreneurship in North Carolina. I did want to work abroad because the idea of being in Guatemala. It's a bigger economy than Salvador but it's still trivially small and so it's hard to get away. Guatemala says like 14 million? 18 million, allegedly, but we don't do the census anymore. And What type of company? so it's probably more, but let's call it 18 million. So the rule of thumb is Guatemala is about three times as large as El Salvador and basically everything. Well, I graduated in 2009 so financial crisis of 2008. I was graduating from economics in North Carolina and I've realized that this is a terrible time to go into the job market in the US so I did play around with just moving to New York because I wanted to Metal structures and roofing so it's curved roofs, you've ever experience outside of Guatemala. You're under the shadow of your seen a curved roof in Central America? So we, my dad was the family, etc. And so it's like to prove that I could hold my own. one that brought that initially in the 80s. And so I started a business solar pennant business since we knew how to install So I did get a job in Belize and Costa Rica and I was kind of roofs we could also install solar panels. And at one point, all of a sudden, overnight, we replaced or some of the going the route of working internationally. But I realized businesses in our family enterprise or business group were placed on the Office of Foreign Assets Control specially I was working in like the international aid sector. I designated terrorist and drug Kingpin watch list out of the United States Treasury Department. We literally found realized this now that as infected by fiat than just kind out reading the newspaper, 35 years of running the business, too bank bankruptcies, I mean, struggling employing over 150 of an extension of the fiat inventions of 1950 and my dad people building stuff. And then all of a sudden, we're placed on this list, and very quickly found out the importance and the was starting a new branch of the company so I decided to move value of censorship resistant money because you are assumed guilty until proven innocent which I had friends in the State back and help him with it. So, we were starting this company. Department from my college days and like reached out and I was like what the hell is this? How do you even start to clear your name? There's nothing I found that reading a newspaper that had a list. And then we went to the bank, and then the managers saying, banks don't cash our checks. There is money in the bank. And I'm looking at the balance. We've been using these accounts for years. And they're literally saying that they cannot cash our checks. And so my dad had been involved in in the banking system. If he had got a meeting with the President of the central bank to ask where in the Guatemalan constitution does it say that the United States Treasury Department can freeze the bank accounts of foreign citizen it's like very clear answer of it is not in the cup Guatemalan constitution, this is beyond our legal code. This is literally when you get on this list, any Guatemalan bank, any bank anywhere in the world is told if a dime moves from these accounts, you are eliminated from the SWIFT network. Not only is it a death knell for the bank, it also puts the entire banking system for that country at risk, because it effectively immediately sets off a bankrupt. And so it's the gun to the head to the banking system. And so there is no assuming in this proof until proven guilty. Yeah, they could know that you're innocent but it wouldn't matter because they're like, our hands are tied, we're not gonna And it's like, we know it must be some mistake, but I don't risk. know, take it up with the United States Treasury Department. And I don't know, I couldn't find their hotline number. I did find an email. So we wrote an email. And then we spent months waiting and finally got an email saying that they required 15 years worth of financial audited statements which we prepared. In the meantime, all of our competitors are saying they're on the OFAC list. Drug kingpins, or terrorists, apparently terrorist. And so we've compiled all the information sent it and you know crossing our fingers because it was just a random email. And 18 months later, got a letter saying, you are no longer on list. But the Department of Treasury reminds you that you will be put on the list at any moment in time and if you ever engage in it's like, not even a sorry, or anything, no acknowledgement of mistake, it was more of an assertion of the power that they wield some government bureaucrat. And as a result, the company eventually went out of business put us further into debt, forced us to fire over 150 people who are feeding over 150 families, who I'm sure ended up as migrants working. Very well trained metal workers so we trained them well. And they're now setting up roofs and building stuff in the United States most more than likely. Did you ever find out like why you guys ended up on that list? It's a very long story. It was essentially a mistake. But it's the very short story of it then it took a while. And this happens all the time. You guys are not the exception. I mean, this is all the time these type things happen. The OFAC list is the worst it's like the absolute extreme. It's known as financial death so I like to think of it as the So infuriating. Be so angry. You don't have any face to be angry equivalent of drone in Afghanistan mistakenly killing an innocent family. That's the equivalent but in Latin America where we've been at war with the United States with the war on drugs since the early 70s. But people just kind of forget and don't really consider it a war and it's evolved into this financial war and so we are collateral damage and just realizing that it took me a long time to obviously went into depth it was terrible I know. I'm at the time felt like the worst thing that ever happened to me I was very depressed I considered suicide. My dad almost died like it was very hard. But now I understand and I am thankful. I thank the United States Treasury Department for ripping the blindfold off of our eyes. And so I'm very awake as to what the reality is and how the world actually works. Not how you hoped it would work or we're taught that it could work at a United States, economics school, that is a Keynesian-inspired, and it's realizing wow, like this world has a very deep problems. And the only thing that fixes this is Bitcoin. at. I always tell friends that the embassy here and the US embassy, Which is why many banks have just developed a policy of we and I'd be like, you guys should at least have to adhere to the same regulations that you push on the country here because they don't realize. And this is small compared to what you and your family face but they don't realize all of the friction and how hard it is to do anything because of US pressure because they have their own bank branches there. If you work with US Embassy, you don't have to go through all the stuff that anybody else has to do to open a bank account. They do all these things so they have no idea the havoc they cause for everybody else because they're exempted from it. It's like, hey, you created these rules, you should at least be subjected to them. So you realize how bad they are. won't deal with Americans for example. Being American is like on par with being from North Korea, almost. I mean, it's like, no, we don't want to deal with you. If you're an American, if you have that blue passport, forget it, because it's your way more trouble than its worth. It's actually at this point, my eye perspective is that it is a serious problem for the long term health of the American empire, because it's making the citizens American citizens abroad, have our liability, whereas you should be pushing your citizens to be business leaders and will received if you're making it harder that's just going to reduce your soft power influence across the world. It's happening everywhere. I have a buddy of mine was in Switzerland, I'm not gonna name the company, but he said like, they would not. He was American but he said they kind of had a policy and unspoken policy of not bringing in any more Americans because it was just so frustrating and hard to try to get them bank accounts and all these other things. They're like, we just hire from somewhere else. So now you have Americans like at a disadvantage compared to the rest of world because of what the US government's doing. It's a very obvious way where the United States Empire is shooting itself in the foot at the height of its power and just clobbering itself. And he's like, wow, like this is clown world on steroids and we just really want to go down in flames as quickly as possible. This was torturous process. And, yeah, so just realizing this, we never put myself in that position ever again. And so slowly rebuild. In the meantime, when I did the public service scholar program in Chapel Hill, I was raised in Guatemala, when, in the 90s, I had new people that were kidnapped literally like the buses were stopped and dudes with guns got on the bus and went like, we want so and so. And they would like bring them down on off of the bus. I remember that being a big thing and Guatemala it never was really a thing in El Salvador, but in Guatemala, and especially them targeting certain families. So like I knew people that happened to and so you in this very unsecure environment I had armed guards that would take me to the bus stop and stuff like that. Growing up in high school wanting to get involved in things but it's like no, you kind of just go to school, go home but when I went to UNC and Chapel Hill and realizing, wow. So free! Like I don't need a bodyguard with me! Exactly. And I found the public service scholar program and realize there's this really strong service culture there that I never knew I had and that just really resonated with me. Got super involved in that when I moved back I was like very interested in finding those kinds of opportunities because I think it's important that society creates moments where people from all walks of life meet each other. And the problem is when society starts to deconstruct, you lose this. The common spaces where you can have a conversation with anyone. And so you can actually empathize or sympathize with someone because you've had the chance to hear them directly and shake their hand and look them in the eyes instead of hear someone tell you about what that group of people think and what they want. Curious, I'm sorry, another side note here. Do they prohibit alcohol sales on that? Is it like, and because they do that now in Salvador, you can't, you can't buy alcohol. I don't know if it's like the day of the election, I think couple days afterwards, but two days before and as human nature would be, it becomes like one of the biggest weeks for sale of alcohol, because everybody's so worried they won't be able to buy on those days they like or they stock up before. So all the beer companies do big displays the week before. It's very healthy in general. And but what I'm most excited about, and what I joined was the ranks of the volunteers. And at this point, when a mom mobilizes almost 25,000 of these tables, there's a minimum of three but an average of four to five citizens to each table. And so it's like, like watching in charge of the tape, tape and get a big box full of all the ballots all the materials you need. And so the way I got recruited was my uncle rent was with a team that ran a whole voting center is the largest voting center in Guatemala, and in the country. It's got like 100 tables. There's this like logistical thing, where you basically create this tradition and this pride this, this, this constant culture and habit of people are always every four years, like, we're going back to our thing, right? And we do our thing and we're, we're, it's our it's, we're proud to run this because it's the people and so it's literally just people calling each other who do you who can you trust that actually show up because if you don't show up you're causing real problems, right? And so it's an interesting network of the most reliable people, which, again, in Latin America, it's very hard sometimes to find reliable people. But you can find them. And it's about 3% of the population. And so three out of every 100 people are very reliable, right. And that's how we generate this army of people that are in charge of the votes. And it's just an honor to serve, right? And when you're there, you know, it's very hard work, you have to show up at three in the morning, you have to stay till you're done. You're technically a mayor for a day, and your jurisdiction is your table. So you're legally protected from being arrested by the cops or the military, like, no one can remove you from the table until you have finalized your document. And what your document is, is all the people cast their vote, you receive them. And the entire time you have witnesses from the political parties sitting literally right behind you. And so they're like, watching everything you do. So over time, now, I realize the voting volunteers are like mining nodes in Bitcoin. And the political witnesses are validating nodes, they verify that the protocol rules were followed. But the hashing is done by the volunteers. And so at the end of the day, you dump all the ballots and top the table, and you count every single one individually, one by one, showing it to every witness. This happens, the decentralized fashion all across the country, simultaneously with over 200,000 people. So it's a lot of people a lot of eyes, that once they're on the paper that makes it that document has integrity, right? And so the document acts kind of like a coin join, where over 400 people are assigned to a table. And you add up so it's their tally sheets, vote tally sheets, that say, alright, out of 300 people 20 votes went to this guy, and maybe we can switch over. And yeah, we'll pull it up. But and so those, like everybody agrees on those, that those are the like, the numbers like the because you have people from different political parties, and you have people in charge of the table. The other ones, yeah, go the yellow one. So basically, here's an example. You can see Julio Fernando, Tocando, Javier, three people, Maria De Los Angeles, Lopez, and their GUI numbers. And then down at the upper right. There are three signatures. So those are the signatures of the three mining nodes of that table. And then below them, you have Une, Valoro and their signatures and their GUI numbers. Those are all the political party witnesses. So let's say, if you go back on this, Just for clarification, are these all candidates? On the left, you can see code 50 and 32, 41. And Une, Azul, Valoro, Cabal, every one of those numbers is assigned to a political party that's competing. And this one is the presidential election. So you do have over 25 competitors. It's insane. Yes, it's the appearance of decentralization, but the consolidation of a proof-of-stake system, but I digress. So, yeah, your friends are the mining nodes that are with you. But then the political party witnesses, they represent the believability. I'm not gonna sign off unless then they've got everything they got. And if they can prove that you did something wrong, you can go to jail, right? So that signature there means this document was done the way it's supposed to. And then none of these people really know each other right? They were just assign there. And that's what I mean that it's this moment, this place, I consider them sacred places that we still have that bring us together as citizens and break down those barriers, where you finally are able to talk to someone that's a political party representative of that party, that you've only heard of. You're sitting next to each other for like 16 hours, doing all this hard work. So it's like you break the ice, and eventually you're like, you find out who's, who's there with the right reasons. And you realize, you know, most people are just there to do a job. And they want what's best for their community. And they try their best, right? And so, basically found these parallels right of what the voting tables volunteers do are effectively mining nodes. The witnesses are validating nodes. The product is a coin joint. So you can see it says 272 votes distributed like that. And so there's, we could find out the registry have this table and find the 272 citizens assigned. But I would never be able to know if you voted for the blue party, because there's a one in 272 chance you voted for that party. So, it's a coin join in that it makes the information public of the transaction block, but it protects people's privacy. However, because it's an election, you want the information to be public, because then all you need to do is make all of these documents available to the public, so that anyone can run the audit to confirm whether or not the election results are actually true. And so that's where our democracy in Guatemala, I think, is one of the best in the world because we can actually prove for ourselves, who won, we don't have to just trust the authority that says, we ran the numbers, and this is the winner, we can actually run it ourselves. And this seems way better than the way we do it in the US. The US is very complicated. But yeah There are electronic voting, e-voting. And then, voting at Guatemala is a country where most people like I don't know what the reading and writing rates are. But when I grew up, it was like, over 60% of people can't read and write. And so this is something that people understand like, it's like showing them the vote with the little 'X' marked on it's like, another one for that right, and you just sum all this up, that's your hashing function, you just take the tally. And if everyone's cool with it, they sign and that's it. And so the tricky bit is, since there are 25,000 voting tables, it means that every election is producing 25,000 of these. And since there's over 20, parties per competing, it means that there are 20 data points per every single document. And there are five elections. So there are 125,000 times 20. It's like 3 million data points. And so it's the election authorities, like anyone can verify it, you just have a week to do it. And so this whole process really put me down the rabbit hole. And so that's why if we go back to the canva, you know, my whole stick is I came for democracy, but I stayed for Bitcoin. I believe that elections happen all over the world. And they are increasingly bad because of people's growing distrust and machines, at the end of the day, you're trusting a black box and the incapacity of the state and the bureaucrats and the clown world to just do their job. And so I think Bitcoiners have an opportunity to use the elections and all of the negative energy around that and all of the election deniers or people distrusting people that result feel like they got shafted, to expose them to Bitcoin to see, Elections have in the elections how are you going to, maybe the company is doing their best job. industry, there's a thing called post election audits. So there are people in your community, and the US has many organizations that specialize in post election audits. And so those guys, the post election auditors are essentially the Bitcoiners of the election system. They don't trust they verify. And so there is a tradition there, from even But if you can't explain this to the layman. cryptography of doing this that I think we can use, so that instead of all this negative energy going to waste, just creating more distrust between people, that we can use those elections, to push people to understand get exposed to Bitcoin, in a very different will I understand just the importance of a trustless system of a system that you can verify for yourself, right, that's the point. And so I'm using the Guatemalan system to reach the Citizen Army that I'm a part of to try to orange pill all 100,000 volunteers to say, the don't trust verify philosophy that our democracy is built on, is the same one that Bitcoin is built on. And I also found some problems with it back in 2019, when I evolved from being a volunteer to being a political party witness. And so I went from being a mining node to a validating node. And it just so happened that in 2019, our system collapsed very publicly, people went to jail. And, you know, denial is a very strong or kind of instinct in humans. And so to me, it was very clear, and it continues to be very clear that the Guatemalan elections of 2019 were the product of fraud. I just couldn't prove it. And the burden of proof was on me. I saw it happen, but I couldn't. And I tried and is when I discovered the open timestamps protocol, which was built by Peter Todd. And because what you saw was that they were changing those As a witness, I had access to the database where all of those Yeah, rates distressed. sheets, documents were supposed to be fed in real time. And it was supposed to go from zero to 105,000. And I saw it go from 10 to 5, 20 to 10, 50 to 20, 60 to 10, 90 to 10 a 100 to zero a 100 Yes, and so that changing of the documents immediately made me think that the only way we would be able to trust the election to zero. And it's like, that's not how a database works, a authorities, is if we figured out a way to organize a massive amount of people to verify all of these documents. And that's database goes from zero to 100. If there are interruptions, it where you know, you have fiscal digital money. So on the on the top left, fiscal digital tab on the very, very left, left, left, means that something bad is happening. Maybe the system just left, left, left, left, left, left. There you go. The skeletal I created this is Fiscaldigital.net, or the logos you have on the presentation. A Fiscal Digital in Guatemala, crashed. Maybe it's there's a logical explanation. But I need fiscal is a term for someone that witnesses so it's not fiscal digital, it's a Fiscal Digital, because, to see. That's also the word they use for like prosecutors, right? Exactly. So it's a prosecutor, it's an overseer, it's a witness. It's the person that's responsible for not trusting but verifying, and so the political parties have their Fiscales and they're known as Fiscal de mesa-the voting table witness. And so I realized we need digital witnesses on the voting system, where if we figure out a way to gamify this and invite a new generation of people to verify the results, then we'll able to independently come to a conclusion as to whether or not we can trust the results. So I tried doing that in 2019, built an open source system inspired by capture, essentially, that just got over 1500 volunteers, that all came into the system and started working on it. But they, the authorities came out with the election results. And when that happened, volunteers lost interest. And so if you are requiring volunteers to give you the work, and you can't motivate them when they lose interest, it's hard. And so in 2019, you know, I use Bitcoin as the timestamping. 19, or 23? 19, now before starting this, the message is, anyone can do this, you should if you're curious about elections, please get involved in them. As a post election auditor, find the organizations that already do this, they're usually strapped for resources. And they're, I think, perfectly primed to be the orange pill. So find the post election auditors in your community, and see how you can help them because they're probably going to be open to hearing about Bitcoin, if they're not bitcoiners. And we tried to perform this audit and we use Bitcoin to timestamp all of the data. And I'm sorry, this is like, very confusing, I'm sure. What do you mean use Bitcoin to timestamp? and explain. Exactly. So if you run your own node on Bitcoin, there is a function called the OP_RETURN function, it allows you to enter arbitrary data into a transaction. And so Peter Todd, a very well-known Bitcoin Core developer, developed a protocol called the 'Open Timestamps Protocol', you can go to opentimestamps.org. What this does is, every so often,(depending on how frequently you want to do this, but you could do this every block), you can send the transaction to the Bitcoin chain, that's a zero satoshis transaction that just pays the miner fee that includes arbitrary data in the'OP-RETURN' function. Is that like the same way like the you know, the first was, I think it was in the first block now it said, you know, banks, It's inspired by that. And so in the case of a mining node, you can do you can sign messages into the block. So, It's slightly different, but it's the same idea of entering some data. And so Satoshi entered as Chancellor on the second on the brink of second bailout of banks, but that's through actually into the block. Any user any node runner can use the return function to enter arbitrary data into a transaction, so you don't need to be the miner, the one that block, you could just be anyone any transaction that got onto that block that paid the miner fee that makes sure to get on the next block. And so but the way the protocol works, open timestamps is you create a hash of a document. But if you have many documents, you can hash them on top of each other and come down to one final hash, that through a series of mathematical proofs, you can prove that they can, their hash is related to the hash that actually went on Bitcoin. you a timestamp to say that data exists, at least as of when this block exists. And you can find the time when that block exists. And so you can say, a set of data is at least as old as this moment. So it's effectively carbon dating for digital data. And the way the reason this is useful, and I highly encourage people to find Peter Todd's talks on open timestamps, it's because the bad guys don't have time machines. No one has a time machine as far as we know. And so if at one moment you have a document, that you want to make sure no one messes with, you timestamp into Bitcoin. And as long as you keep that document stored in your own personal server, or wherever you can wait 1000 years could go by, and you could prove that this document is the exact same as that document that existed 1000 years ago. And that's incredibly valuable. Because if you go to court, and someone is saying, but this was the contract that you signed, and you look at the contracts, like I didn't sign that I don't owe Mike a million dollars. Like we agreed on $1, like, We denominated in Satoshis. I don't know what you're talking about dollars, so. So if that were to happen to you if you had a situation like that. And you'd timestamp that the Bitcoin, you could always say, but here's the original contract, and I can prove that this this contract that I'm showing you that doesn't exist today exists since this previous moment. And so if we're in front of a judge, and you can prove that, then probably I have a better case, right? So in the case of elections, this is extremely valuable. Because as elections are happening, if you can timestamp all of that data as it's coming in, and as it's created, you're essentially create forensic information using Bitcoin that can allow people to determine what the probabilities are that a certain document is real or fake, you effectively reduce 99% of the attack surface of an election to a very, very small moment in time. right, yeah, so they would, in order to fraudulently impact elections, they would have to attack each table at that point, they can't do it in aggregate, Or they would have had to prepare the attack previously, and be ready for it. But because elections correspond to certain voting patterns, you'd have to take a huge gamble on predicting what kind of voting pattern would go unnoticed, right. So it essentially means that attackers of elections that are trying to commit election fraud, would have to have insane amounts of compute power to predict all sorts of variables that are effectively impossible. And so what, it doesn't make it impossible, but it raises the bar to a level that most places don't have. And if you also do it this in a decentralized way, then you have to hit all of these places simultaneously. And so yes, it. So I did that before running my election audit, because I also think if you're going to run an audit on an election, and you're going to potentially contradict the election results, you also require the timestamp, because if you contradict the election authorities, you might go to jail. In Guatemala, it's a crime and I, I could be charged with treason. And so I realized, If you call into question the election results, If I contradict the election authorities election results, I could be charged with treason, and at the very least, they could say that I altered the election documents. And so you the burden of proving that you've never tampered with the election results is on you. So you get the official election documents, you timestamp them to Bitcoin, and then you start to And so my idea is, it would be great if all democracies were run not it. So the experience of attempting this in 2019 led us to make a bunch of recommendations and we caused a lot of noise and we became of kind of viral and went on Guatemala, and so, this year, another group called Simple Proof, decided to try and build a system to do this officially for the government. And that's why if you go to YouTube, I helped them. I helped them with a documentary. It's a 16 minute documentary. So a lot simpler and easier to understand that this rambling of mind, 16 minute documentary that basically creates the we have the opportunity now through Bitcoin and the open timestamps protocol to create immutable democracies. immutable, because a mutable democracy is no winner, right? If the results can change over time, then it means that, but if we can make them immutable, and there are certain characteristics that allow for democracies to be more immutable than others, so this documentary tells that story of how this company simple proof, was able to convince the Guatemalan election authorities called the Tribunal Supremo Electoral, to use this service called the immutable backup, to ensure that all election documents in Guatemala are timestamp to Bitcoin, and therefore, arguably immutable or tamper evidence, is the right term, but that's less sexy. So it's, the originals are immutable, and that you can prove that using Bitcoin. And so yes, it's Guatemala is the first country in the world to have used Bitcoin to protect its election integrity. So just the logistical question this, this same system wouldn't really work in the US because of the electronic voting machines and the way I mean, it worked in Guatemala, because of the system that they had. Is that correct? Or am I missing something? Yes, I would say that's incorrect. In that the United States has 50 states, every single state has its own election law that's passed by the legislative. And then, as I understand it, but I may be wrong. The county clerk, so each county, and the County Clerk specifically is responsible for interpreting the election law to carry out the votes in that county under the rules that are set by each state. So certain states may have a paper based system where there are voting tally sheets, or the equivalent of a vote tally that you could do this with, so that you could use this, but it depends on how each state has that I know, there's been a lot of things happening in elections in the States. So maybe certain people have lobbied and improve the election systems enough where they've removed the black boxes. However, even in E-voting, you could there's always some proof, right? And so whatever proof whatever election documents exist, they should be timestamp to Bitcoin, because that's the only way that we can prove that they haven't been altered. So my message would be, if you care about elections, in your county, in your state, find the post election auditors and go ask them the simple question. Hey, if I wanted to audit the election, how do I do this? What would I go about? And the hope would be that you could get your hands on the primary source documents, not a secondary, you know, this is the receipt that the machine gave you. But rather, this is the primary source the unaltered from the source, wherever that is, that has the results, and then verify that. I cannot say that I know that it's impossible in the States, I think certain places it is impossible, but there's got to be someplace where you can use. Yeah. And I'm sure like I said, it's so it's so many different systems that are used, brought together. But I think I mean, I think no matter what side you're on, politically premised, everybody believes that the next election is going to be disputed that both sides are going to feel like it was fraudulent. And so I think this is more important than ever. Well, that's the hope. And it's, you know, Latin America. What I described in Guatemala, in terms of our Citizen Army is our victory from our revolution in the 80s. It was so successful, people thought the guy was crazy, because the idea of like giving citizens the votes was like you're crazy. In a country of illiterate people like this is not going to work, never going to work. You're insane. But then it worked. And so is such a miraculous thing that the guy that built the system was taken around Latin America to tell everyone how successful this was. And so in the 90s, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Bolivia, Ecuador, all copied our systems because they were all coming out of like their own little troubles. And so the country, El Salvador has the most similar voting system to Guatemala than anywhere else on Earth. And so, and other places in Latin America have very similar processes as well. And next year, we have elections in El Salvador, Costa Rica, Mexico, Panama, Dominican Republic, Uruguay, Chile, I think, and Brazil, all before the USA elections. So I think my message to Bitcoiners is, let's run full nodes, let's audit as many elections as we can, to send the message that Bitcoin fixes elections, Bitcoin, maybe that fixes but Bitcoin provides a much higher level of transparency and can bring trust back to people in elections, particularly those that distrust and even if you fail, because I failed miserably in 2019, even if you fail, you still reach people that hear about Bitcoin, in a different way. I think the sound money argument is super valuable. But we've reached kind of the limits of the people that are interested in this. Yeah. And so this is election deniers, and teenagers are the two main groups that I basically work with here, who helps me do this. And I have a hard time thinking about to better audiences of pre coiners, who are primed to grok Bitcoin because of their distrust with a very different message that breaks the Fudd of what they've heard that it's not useful for anything. Well, if it's useful for elections, then maybe there's more to it right. And then I know you said one of the challenges in 19 was you guys were using volunteers, and then they lost interest. So yeah, how did you resolve that? And I believe it involves Bitcoin at some point. Yep, so if we go back to the Canva, and the page number 42. So we partnered with a group company called stack work. I met Paul Itoi, the founder, way back when husband El Salvador several times, actually, the old was also here in Salt. And when you were trying to do some of the stack work stuff, and I realized it's so powerful, but it's still kind of like hard yeah, to figure out how to do this with people, right, and so figured out how to work with them. And this is the summary of our experience, where I was saying we have so many of these data points. And so with their help, we ended up doing 17 million OCR. So, what is an OCR? An optical character recognition. So it's a machine looking at the data that was handwritten, and coming up with some type of result. Okay, so we relied on machines first. And if the machines didn't agree, then we went to two humans showed them the data. And every time a human hit a job, at first, we were handing out. And this is something they're verifying on their phone as well? They would go to our website, get an SMS message with a code, send them to link to stockwork, login. And basically just do a series of tests, we had a quality assurance. So if you go What's that now? to the next slide, over 1700 people signed up. We applied a test to make sure that they were capable of doing the work. So over a thousand qualified, out of those thousand, 2026 are in more than 90,000 SATs, which is more or less $30 at the time that they did this, and our top 10 users earned more than 500,000. 1000 SATs is probably around 3540, I'd say. And in total, just to people that were election, that were election deniers and teenagers that signed up for this, those won out over 1000 users, they earned their first sat through this program. So it's effectively a lightning faucet. So, when they verify they do a certain amount, then they just automatically gets points? And so we didn't mention Bitcoin, it was just this is a game, compete with your friends and see who can do more for democracy. Now it just so happened that anyone that learned about the Lightning Network could understand that those points were Satoshis. And if they learned how to create a lightning invoice, then they would be exposed to their first lightning transaction. And so over 66 million sets were rewarded to users, many of whom figured it out and have experienced their first lightning transaction, but many more that are going to find out eventually. Because it's a game, we're just going to redo this every single time that there's an election. And our top 10 users will be kind of like when you go to an arcade, and you see like the top scores, they're just going to be there. So, my goal is to use the elections as a constant reminder every four years, for Guatemalans to see this is how many SATs were distributed through an election audit. And so if every four years, we remind people about SATs. This, I hope will turn into those top users, you know, 10,000 Pizza moments. The most that we were rewarding for a single job of data entry. And that's literally like writing three numbers on your phone was 20 SATs, and I did numbers. So 500,000 SATs would have been the equivalent of 40 hours of doing this. So those top 10 users spent at least about five days of eight hour work. And so in a week, they earned 500,000 SATs, which is what like $150, to the current exchange rates, more or less. And so it's bringing, creating this game back and like, next time, there's no way we're gonna give this amount of SATs, I don't think so. And it helps to clarify with them the direction of Bitcoin movement. And so our top score, just like the arcades, if you've ever played an arcade, and you know that you saw top score that like this has been there for like 10 years, like, no one's gonna get this score, no one's ever gonna beat their high score. And so we use the election as a constant reminder for people of what it would have been like, had you saved those sets, right. And so I think that's, it's my way of using all that propaganda around the election, to bring people back to if I had just saved Bitcoin over time. I know, auditing an election for a week in 2023, might turn into retiring in 2040. Right? So it's I want to my mission in life is to do everything I can so that the 50 million Central Americans that live in this region are among the first people in the world to experience Bitcoin. There's 8 billion people on Earth, I see it as a race. And I think we have everything we need in Central America, to be the first region to win that race. And if we do, I think it's going to help us become the most prosperous region in the world and peaceful. Yeah. No, that is, that is amazing. I'm glad we were able to sit down because even talking to you about these things, but you know, I'm old and half of those going over my head, I'm a visual person, so I need it to be kind of laid out this and now makes complete sense. Like, Oh, of course, this will help. And if I understand that, I'm sure everybody else understands it, too. Because you know, I'm a little slow. What I'm shifting gears a little bit, I'm curious as to what your senses of in Guatemala in general and their take on Bitcoin. Do you see them warming up at all? Are they curious about what's happening in El Salvador? Are you seeing more people being orange pilled there at least curious about it, or does it seem like they're focused on other things. So, we have a peculiar challenge in Guatemala, and that I've mentioned the Francisco Marroquin history and the impact that they had on limiting monetary inflation. And so Guatemala is this weird place in Latin America that just doesn't experience inflation, or experiences inflation, the other dollar which now is much clearer, but over the past 2030 years. If you talk to someone from Mexico, Costa Rica even saw or or not to mention Argentina, Venezuela, inflation's obvious. So it's hard to get to Guatemala from that angle, because it's just like, and it's weird, because everyone knows someone from Argentina or Mexico, but you never talk about you're talking about soccer instead of you know, monetary history, right? And so, it just, it's a hard argument to make. At the same time, there's the remittance angle and so I'm hopeful. I'm not the censorship. I mean, the thing that you and your family faced I'm sure you guys aren't alone in that. There's like but it's small. The banks, no, some are horrible to deal with. I mean, that alone, I think would make people is the banks better and better. The banks are local, primarily low. Leone, in Guatemala, there's a very strong banking, so very conservative. And so they, you know, 60% or more people are unbanked, but they're very strong. And so I don't think it's from there. It's more of the remittance angle, where our economy at this point is probably upwards of 30% of our GDP is from remittances. And so is it higher than El Salvador's remittances? I don't believe the numbers I like I would say it's probably at this point, over a third of our GDP is women's people would dispute that, I'm sure. But we are sick. We are essentially in a slave exporter for the United States of second third class citizens that work their asses off. And the incredible thing about the fiat system is they're convinced that it's the American dream. And so they're happy, right? Like, if you go if you're if you're working, you know, at the hotel janitor in California, you made it compared to staying at home being a farmer, right? That's how wacky the world is. And so that's what we've become. So I'm hopeful that the remittance angle, on average, remittances are paying 9%. I mean, you've talked about this ad nauseam here, I hope to folks where it's, if it's 99%, cost around average for admins, and we're, it's 20%. That's 2% of our GDP. So it's, that is the angle and then of course, well, Kelly is a phenomenon. And had he been allowed to be on the presidential ballot? Like, we had 40 useless clowns had Kelly under, he would have won by a landslide, by a landslide in Guatemala, and in Honduras, Probably pretty much anywhere in Latin America. But definitely next door in Guatemala. And so of course, people are, people have heard of Kelly, but the Bitcoin thing it was like, it's something that people ridicule in El Salvador and so on, because we have a strong banking system. But the jokes going to be on them at very soon. And so we are, while the rest of the world can ignore it, we kept it. It's a lot. It is Guatemala's second most important trading partner after the United States. So, if bitcoin takes off like a rocket ship, and Salvadorans are massively improving their quality of life, it will be the first to know. But that's where. Is it mostly like farming, like produce and stuff coming here? What's the main trading? I mean, I know most of the like, pretty much all the vegetables I don't know. and anything like that come or come from Guatemala. Because when, when they're having the protests, because of the elections, the produce and everything was horrible, because you couldn't get anything in here was yeah, it was just we caused some. I mean, that's the only reason I knew that was gone because people are complaining about. The highlands of Guatemala or the breadbasket of the region. So we produce a lot of food. And but I don't know what the makeup is of exactly of the trade. I do know that the borders are useless and terrible. And they just drive up costs. And we were just talking about this before the show, like the lines and lines of trucks, just getting their stamp. Well, that's the other reason the vegetables are our second-rate, I think, seminars because they sit at the border for a day in the heat trying to get through. At least the dates. Yeah, well, I mean, it is the fact that we have a border that has that kind of a line. When you go between France and Germany, who's got more words between them, then we have the languages. And we like you can cross without any problem. And we have this nonsense going on. That, of course, keeps a bunch of fat people fat that don't do any work, because they're canceling theirs. And Fiat is a nightmare. But um, in terms of the vocal influence and Bitcoin, it's not really a thing, but it will become one very quickly. And with immutable democracy, the documentary that I highly suggest everyone go and watch, check out film that simple proof.com. And if you can bring that up, that'd be great. There's been an interesting shift in that. Everyone knows what's happening with the elections, because the authorities have decided since the current authorities lost terribly because they're mediocre and awful, and they cheated everyone out of the elections, but they can't take. They basically, there was a number of candidates. These they couldn't run. Seven candidates. Six candidates that were officially cancelled like these were allowed to run. And I think another 3 candidates that were basically exhiled threatened with jail. So, you have like 9 people like that would probably won't just allowed the election to run. And the last one was the most outrageous. The last poll, consulting Guatemala who they're gonna vote for, have 25 percent, like got double above anyone else, and thirty days before the election, disrespecting all the legal norms that we have, the last month that you could have done this is 4 months before, they chop them up and obviously, people lost their guy, they're not gonna vote for their official candidate. And you know where the bullet came from, right? Candidate Nick Roden was murdered, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have used that. But it's his political campaign was was killed in the most egregious manner. And, you know, people were just fat satisfied and went somewhere else. But the system lost and so the status quo is arguing, well, the polls didn't show him winning. And so it must be election fraud, like, the last poll had another guy winning that you didn't even let compete. So it's like how, like how there's these people that live in a fantasy world? And that's why I tried to reach them with this to say, look, it's one thing to go on Twitter, or wherever you are on what's up and spread a bunch of lies. How about we, instead of talking about it, with our opinions, actually sit down with the documents and just do the work? It's much more useful to use that pent up energy and all that angry, you have them stealing the election to come in, and actually just do the work. And we did the work. We published our report, it's an 82 page report that goes into every single election, this showing the discrepancies is everything. And it's like the presidential election has discrepancies but they do not amount to the 200,000 votes that elected the winner. And so the status quo is trying to fight this. And there's a lot of you know, we could go back to civil war. It's that sad right now. Do you think if they nullify that election and call a new election, that is all breakout? It'll be a civil war. The protests that you were referring to that interrupted the food towards Salvador, were the people revolting sending a very clear message to the status quo, we've had enough. It's been over 70 years, since there's, like of the same system, like different management, same ownership since 1955. Like we decided to for a change, and ownership is going to change. But it's just the executive branch. Legislative And the result will be much worse, much, much worse. So my judiciary, it's the same, but even then they're trying to, to basically do a coup against this. But the message is clear. If they do prevent him, and worse if they murder him. That's what I'm really concerned about. If but not ever know, the next president of Guatemala is murdered, or isn't allowed to take office, we will go back to civil war. number, it's a low probability scenario, I would put it at 5% or lower. So 95% chance that nothing, nope, he just takes office January 15. And basically, you have an executive branch that is now contrary to the entire political apparatus. And I'm hopeful that it's made me optimistic for Guatemala and the first time in my entire life, because they cancel each other out. There won't be anything done. But that's better than them stealing all the money in the world, which is what they've been doing. This is our time, no hospitals, no roads, no schools, no security, just a bunch of criminals getting richer. That's what my adult life has been in Guatemala. Now, the faucet gets turned off and we get to work. Well, we'll keep an eye on that. Hopefully, that's everything goes smooth, and they're able to make that transition peacefully. If not, you might have a new neighbor here and then something. Well, not that you would ever want, you know, bad things to happen. But this is helpful for you guys, and that it shines a spotlight on why it's important to have elections validated to have things clear so even just to dispel distrust, because when you have distressed in a system, it breaks down. So how can people find out more? Where should they follow you? What there's practical things they can do to implement these type of things in their own countries, what's sure that people know. So first, I recommend finding immutable democracy at film.simpleproof.com or just Google. And if they find it on YouTube Yeah, Google, YouTube, immutable democracy. It's in English and And certainly, I was surprised that this is a long story in the in Spanish, share it with your friends. Too, we will be putting making, but it led to the authorities finally, more content out there about the auditing bits right now you can go to fiscal digital punto net, but it's all in Spanish, so might not be that helpful. But yeah, my message is find the post election auditors in your country and orange below. And if you care about elections, start finding out if you wanted to do an audit of your election and verify for yourself, who won? How do you do that? And just go and ask stupid questions, you know, just like, what does it take? I use a lot of Freedom of Information Act requests in or the equivalent in my country to just ask for all the data. Like, I just want the receipts, just show me the receipts. And then it gets a lot of data. I don't care. I just want to see you can I just see it? And you might be surprised by what you find. Right. incorporating Bitcoin and you know, if we can bring trust back to elections, then, you know, the Fiat Apocalypse might not be so bad, you know, it's inevitable. But, you know, the chaos that can ensue from people distrusting elections entirely is so dangerous that I do think it's a responsibility that pick winners have, but it's an opportunity. It's all there's so many people without hope. And so maybe if this if you haven't found your place in Bitcoin, then you know, and the elections are exciting, just mutable democracy. And I came for Bitcoin. I came for democracy, but I stayed for Bitcoin. to see as they progress and perfect the system and the way that works. Yeah, a lot of potential there. stockwork.com. they do business process automation through AI and Lightning Network. And yeah, so it's an incredibly powerful company and tool to mobilize and organize work for thousands of people. So, shout out to them. And appreciate you, Mike. And just I want to say I've been coming here for a few years. I met you in 2020. I was telling if you remember I was with you when the announcement. I do. I remember in Miami. And so I'll never forget that just the honor of having been able to hear that. So officially, with you as I was surreal. That was just like It really for me. It's okay, game on. Yeah. It's like, you know, she just got real. Yeah. What about Twitter? You're on Twitter. I'm on Twitter as Carlos Carlino. Yeah, that's a mouthful. So, make sure you follow Carlino on Twitter so you can hear updates and all this is happening. I'm not too active but hopefully, you'll find out about it. I mean, we're it's elections in Bitcoin get you knocked off of Twitter. So yeah, there's many efforts that have gotten knocked off. So it's still there for a little while. Yeah. Sooner after, yes, alright. We'll have to have a follow up here this next year with all these new elections and see what kind of progress he is. Well, part of the message is, I do believe that with all this label killers presidential election could be the most transparent election in the history of the world. Yeah. It's huge, huge opportunity there. And Bitcoin can make it happen. So, if you think that label Kelly should be the most transparently elected president of all time, then definitely reach out. I've heard that he occasionally has listened to this podcast, so maybe he'll listen to this one and reach out to you. Appreciate it. Hello, everything. All right.